Multiple questions about water heater

[Mr_David]

I finally managed to load the video of what the hot water does.

Your system has air in it. Getting air in it somehow. once you flush out air it showed be okay. Your on a well system so I'm guessing it has something to do with your pump. could be pumping air into system. the pressures switches don't know the difference from water or air. maybe when the pump shuts off the water drains back and the air in system rises into pipe system.
I'm not much help with well systems.

 

[KULTULZ]

That's just a theory, but I'll keep trying to brainstorm on this one.

Did that make any sense to anybody other than me?

It makes sense to me..

 

[Caduceus]

See, that's what I'm trying to cypher out here Mr. David. You would think that the cold side would be just as problematic, but that's not the case (with the probability of one toilet as an exception). So you can ask yourself "How does air get into only the hot side?" Then we ask ourselves "What changed on the plumbing system just before the issue started?" you would immediately go towards the well repair as the culprit.
So maybe Mr. David is on the right track. Could the air being introduced into the cold supply be accumulating at the highest point (the water heater) and be causing the problem? Maybe our well specialists could recommend some easy diagnostics to rule out. or confirm, the possibility.

 

[frodo]

possible dip tube o the wrong side ?

 

[Zanne]

The water does not smell like sulfur.

The catalyst did seem to be the incident where the pump stopped working because a power surge killed the wire that linked the pump that filled the holding tank with the lever that monitored the water level in the tank so the tank overflowed. This somehow triggered the pressure safety shutoff on the jet pump. I had to shut it all down (which means the water tends to drain back out of the holding tank).

I do think the idea of air accumulating in the system and perhaps collecting in the water heater might be the problem. Since the air would rise to the top and the hot water line comes out of the top...

One problem with troubleshooting is that the green sink does not have the cold water working because of a problem with the cartridge in the lever (I tried replacing it and then couldn't get the lever to go back down onto the seat all the way).

On my own bathroom sink I have a water filter on the faucet, but I took it off to take a video (which I am currently trying to upload but it is sloooooow). I haven't turned the hot water on to that one yet, but I probably can to do a comparison if need be.

The kitchen sink has a single lever so the hot and cold mixes and it tends to be all spurty and erratic no matter which temperature water is coming out-- but that faucet is sort of failing. When I turn it to full hot the water does all of the spurting thing. On cold, it now has much weaker pressure/volume.

The water faucet out back that is cold only (which is tapped before the waterlines enter the house) has very strong pressure from the faucet I fixed near the back door.

I have noticed that when the toilet is filling that the water pipe for it shakes and it makes a lot of noise as if there is surging or something though. But that might be because I need to clean the flush valve assembly again or replace it.

Woohoo, while I was typing the video uploaded. My camera/recording skills suck and I forget that I have to wait a few seconds before speaking for it to pick it up. LOL. I was actually expecting the cold water to spurt. This faucet has no strainer-- I removed it so I could put on a brita faucet-mount filter and only removed that filter so I could do the video.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZMGGlSlJs[/ame]

Edit: Frodo, what is the dip tube and how would I be able to determine if it was on the wrong side?

KULTULZ, thanks for the image. That is what I would use to replace the current drain? Or is that what I would use to replace the current setup for the pressure valve?

Should I use a ball-valve for the cold water shutoff before it enters the tank? I'm thinking of replacing the metal pipes going in with color-coded ones.

Also, should I add a ball-valve for a shutoff for the hot water that is leaving the heater in case I just need to shut off the whole house hot water run without having to shut off the breaker?

IIRC, at one point my father had the water set up so that there was a separate line for hot water entering the house from the well, but the tenants ripped it out and messed up our water supply system.

 

[havasu]

I gotta ask girl, but what the hell is all that stuff in your sink?

 

[KULTULZ]

KULTULZ, thanks for the image.

That is what I would use to replace the current drain? Or is that what I would use to replace the current setup for the pressure valve?

Yes, it will make it a free flow drain valve allowing more sediment(s) to pass through without clogging.

You definitely want a shut-off on the cold side and I also use one on the hot side so as not to drain the house system when servicing. But I have also read where this is not a good idea.

My BIGGECT CONCERN in this whole thread is the proper operation of the T&P (Temperature and Pressure Relief) VALVE...

Just realized this statement-

Also, should I add a ball-valve for a shutoff for the hot water that is leaving the heater in case I just need to shut off the whole house hot water run without having to shut off the breaker?

NEVER attempt to service WH without cutting power first. An element can burn (fail) in a split second. There should be a cut-off device at the WH.

 

[Zanne]

Havasu, I'm not even sure what it all was. It was stuff that had been on the counter and my cat knocked it in. One of the things was a container of spare change that my cat spilled. I know there was a washcloth and I think there was some hair removal stuff from when I used to try to remove hair from my legs, but that stuff didn't work. I really need to go through and throw a bunch of stuff away. Basically my bathroom was a storage area for a long time and I had just put everything in the tub or on the counter so I could work on the floor. I think I even had a screwdriver in the sink. The water was shutoff to it for years and I only recently turned the cold water back on.

Kultulz, I meant a ball valve as the shutoff for the hot water on top of the heater. I should have specified that. I would never drain the heater from the bottom without turning the power off. The shutoff for the hot water would be in case something went awry and I wanted to shut the hot water off in case one of the hot water lines somewhere broke or was leaking for some reason.

 

[frodo]

My BIGGECT CONCERN in this whole thread is the proper operation of the T&P (Temperature and Pressure Relief) VALVE...


this is my biggest pet peeve of all time

A P&T VALVE,,,is NOT a vent for a water heater. the correct usage of the T&P is to look at it. that is ALL!!!!!!

here is my reasoning.

your water tank has particales of rust, calicum, "stuff" floating around inside the tank;

a P&T valve has a rubber diaphram .

when you open the P&T, trash gets in the disphram. causeing it to drip.

when a T&P drips. it is a indication, safety feature, that something is wrong and it [the tank] needs servicing

to vent a water heater. walk your butt to a faucet and open the hot side .

to let the air out

leave the damn T&P alone, or I will come over and drink all your ice tea

 

[frodo]

dip tube... forces the cold water, down to the bottom of the tank
and the hot water to the top.

if you did not have a dip tube, your water would be cold/

only difference between the hot side and cold side of a wh, is the dip tube

you can actually switch sides on water if needed

 

[KULTULZ]

My BIGGECT CONCERN in this whole thread is the proper operation of the T&P (Temperature and Pressure Relief) VALVE...

this is my biggest pet peeve of all time

A P&T VALVE,,,is NOT a vent for a water heater. the correct usage of the T&P is to look at it. that is ALL!!!!!!

here is my reasoning.

your water tank has particales of rust, calicum, "stuff" floating around inside the tank;

a P&T valve has a rubber diaphram .

when you open the P&T, trash gets in the disphram. causeing it to drip.

when a T&P drips. it is a indication, safety feature, that something is wrong and it [the tank] needs servicing

to vent a water heater. walk your butt to a faucet and open the hot side .

to let the air out

leave the damn T&P alone, or I will come over and drink all your ice tea

But the valve needs to be tested on a regular basis, correct?

If it is opened (and works correctly) and it leaks @ closing, it needs to be replaced and the tank serviced.

 

[KULTULZ]

dip tube... forces the cold water, down to the bottom of the tank
and the hot water to the top.

GAS WATER HEATER CUTAWAY SHOWN-

if you did not have a dip tube, your water would be cold

only difference between the hot side and cold side of a wh, is the dip tube

you can actually switch sides on water if needed

It is also possible the dip tube is either broken and/or submerged in sediment. It is also possible the bottom heating element is covered by sediment and/or calcified.

The condition of the water drawn from the WH will give an indication of what is going on inside. The OP showed in an earlier post drainage from the WH.

 

[frodo]

But the valve needs to be tested on a regular basis, correct?

If it is opened (and works correctly) and it leaks @ closing, it needs to be replaced and the tank serviced.

NO, the valve does not need to be tested.

the reason it is leaking is because you popped it.

NOT because of an unsafe condition, BUT because it has trash under the seat.

when you pop it,,you cause the leak that cause's it to be replaced

 

[frodo]

I was in the Air Force. it is right and left.

if the Air Force had wanted you to say port and starboard they would have wrote an instruction manual instructing you on the use.
since they did not write a manual, you fall back on the english language and what your TI instrusted you .
he called my boots left and right and instructed me on the use of the term left and right.

 

[KULTULZ]

NO, the valve does not need to be tested.

the reason it is leaking is because you popped it.

NOT because of an unsafe condition, BUT because it has trash under the seat.

when you pop it,,you cause the leak that cause's it to be replaced

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you...

If raising the lever causes leakage when it is returned to rest, it may be an indication of a faulty valve and/excessive sediment/calcium.

How would you not know the valve was frozen an/or out of spec?

Some manufacturers (Rheem) recommend that the temperature and pressure safety relief valve be tested once every six months. To test the valve the lever on the valve is lifted, which should result in (hot) water flushing through the valve and its discharge tube into a bucket placed below the discharge tube for that purpose or into a floor drain.

After lifting the easing lever or relief valve opening lever, lower it gently back to its closed position. Rheem points out that rough handling of the relief valve test lever, such as allowing it to "snap" closed, can damage the temperature and pressure relief valve - a dangerous condition that could lead to a water heater explosion or BLEVE EXPLOSION (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion).

If water does not flow freely when the temperature/pressure relief valve is opened, the valve should be replaced by a licensed plumber, making sure that an approved, properly rated TP valve is installed.

If your temperature/pressure relief valve has not been tested or replaced sooner than five years, Rheem recommends that the TP valve should simply be replaced. More frequent replacement of the safety valve may be needed in areas where hard water is found.

SOURCE- http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Water_Heater_Relief_Valves.php

Especially in this instance where the water so sediment ridden.

 

[frodo]

nah!..............................

 

[Zanne]

LOL. Well, given that the line connected to my T&P valve is illegally reduced, I think I'll leave that valve alone.

Kul, on that setup you showed with the ball valve, the pex nipple attaches to the heater, right? Would installing it be something I could do myself without having to sweat anything?

I wish I could see inside the tank to know what my dip tube looks like (to see the length and if its covered in sediment).

It sounds like my best bet is to drain the tank and replace the drain spout.

How long would it generally take for the water in the tank to cool after I shut off the power to the tank?

Should I bother with replacing the metal lines with color-coded ones? I mean, I could probably just use red and blue tape on the CPVC parts of the lines to indicate the temperature.

I'm also thinking about the best placement for a shutoff for the cold water. I'm trying to think of where the easiest place to reach it will be.

 

[KULTULZ]

LOL.

Well, given that the line connected to my T&P valve is illegally reduced, I think I'll leave that valve alone.

If nothing else is done, that TP VALVE drain arrangement needs to be scrapped and replaced with at the minimum a proper discharge tube installed according to code. These are available @ HOME DEPOT or LOWES already made up.

You need to understand what may happen if that valve fails to operate.

Kul, on that setup you showed with the ball valve, the pex nipple attaches to the heater, right? Would installing it be something I could do myself without having to sweat anything?

Yes, you can install one with the proper wrenches. The problem is going to be draining the sediment laden water through that nylon drain valve. The replacement nipple is PEX lined and available @ Home depot.

I wish I could see inside the tank to know what my dip tube looks like (to see the length and if its covered in sediment).

If the lower heating element is removed, you should be able to see both.

It sounds like my best bet is to drain the tank and replace the drain spout.

How long would it generally take for the water in the tank to cool after I shut off the power to the tank?

Should I bother with replacing the metal lines with color-coded ones? I mean, I could probably just use red and blue tape on the CPVC parts of the lines to indicate the temperature.

I'm also thinking about the best placement for a shutoff for the cold water. I'm trying to think of where the easiest place to reach it will be.

The connectors you have are fine (if dielectric nipples are being used) until you have the hook-up up-graded properly. You would simply put a ball valve on the cold inlet nipple and using a ninety degree elbow FIP X MIP and re-attaching the copper supply line.

In all sincerity, you need to have a PROFESSIONAL PLUMBIN SERVICE come out and straighten this mess up.

Did LOWES charge a service fee for the install?

Here is a tutorial video- http://www.lowes.com/cd_how+to+install+an+electric+water+heater_1311701903_

 

[frodo]

Mr kultulz ,

You are 100% correct in that the manufacture suggests the pop off to be tested any where from 1 time every 6 months to 1 time every 3 years.
depends on the manufacture.

they contend the valve can get full of sediment and fail to operate

.they also are in the business of selling pop offs.

I disagree, sediment settles, particulates float

to me, this is an area where the trade person, and common since trump manufactures recommendations.

being that I have installed thousands of w/h's and have seen the results of using them as a "vent"

I will stand by my observation that a pop off is best left alone.

I guess it is an experience vs book learning thing

 

[Zanne]

Kultulz, I agree that I need to have a professional come work on fixing the water heater situation. My problem will be actually getting someone to come out. The regular plumber will come out to snake drains (which I now do myself after he got pissy and overcharged us last time) but when I try to schedule him to come out for other stuff, he blows me off. The heating/cooling guy doesn't answer his phone and doesn't call back half the time.

Thanks for the picture of the discharge setup. Mine doesn't look anything like that. The small pipe goes bends around and goes to the side of the water heater and twists around down through the platform and then down through the floor to the underside of the house.

So the proper setup would be to have it going straight down to a bucket or receptacle of some sort?

When I went to the local hardware store and asked about the pipe for the T&P valve, the store owner didn't know what I was talking about (he took over the business of his late father). He also started telling me that things don't really need to be done to code because stuff worked fine before they made up all of the rules. *rollseyes* I wonder if that was his father's philosophy as well. His father was a licensed contractor and a nice guy, but I was advised to never hire him because he did shoddy work.

And, yes, Lowes did charge for the installation.

I still can't find that bulldog raised drip pan thingy for sale anywhere. I wonder if I could just lift the thing up on bricks or some other sort of platform that I could wedge under it and then have some sort of cheap plastic container underneath to catch drips. I can use velcro or something to make it stay in place under the spout.

My one reservation about the type of ball valve in the picture you provided is that I think my cats would be able to knock it open accidentally. There used to be a door to close off this area, but when the AC people were working, they knocked one of the doors off and it got broken and we never replaced it. I can probably get some hinges and make a new door though. Maybe I'll make a bifold one so it won't block the hallway when opened.