Multiple questions about water heater

[frodo]

Kultulz, what adapter did you use to connect the PVC to CPVC? I will probably need to cut off some PVC and replace it with CPVC and I want to have an appropriate way to bridge them.

 

[KULTULZ]

-REPEAT REQUEST-

I need an on-field ruling here-

There is PVC on her (Zannes) inlet supply. I understand PVC is not allowed, only CPVC.

But,

I have my well water filtration system plumbed with SCH 80 PVC. This was supplied by the filter manufacturer as part of the install kit. After the filtration system, the PVC is transitioned to CPVC for house supply.

Am I within code here?

I googled NSF61 Table P2904.5 and discovered PVC is no longer (recently) in the table. I researched further and found a discussion saying it was eliminated due mostly to the inspector (AHJ) having difficulty differentiating cold and hot runs in a timely fashion.

But I also came across a reference saying that PVC was allowed at and within 5ft of the service entry.

My concern is my water treatment install is SCH 80 PVC but was installed three years ago. All is within 5ft of entry (PE). Do I need to re-plumb (need to make modifications anyways) to another material?

THANX!

 

[frodo]

Pe and PVC are only used outside

cpvc and pex are ok for outside and inside

copper, type k, L, for under the building
type M for outside, underground and above ground in the building



A well house is technically a building/structure

 

[KULTULZ]

DISCUSSION of P2904.A and P2904.5 - http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-water-21317/

 

[Zanne]

Ok. Any name for those fittings? I mean, I can look for them at the store...

Looks like the CPVC has a threaded female end that would attach to the PVC threaded PVC male end. Would I use multi-purpose or all-purpose glue/cement for tying the two together? Can that same glue be used to fit the female PVC to non-threaded male PVC part and ditto on the CPVC? Or should I use different adhesives?

I'm not sure on the best place to switch over to PVC.. I know to make it to code I would have to pull out all of my PVC inside the house and replace it with CPVC. That's going to be a royal pain in the arse. I wonder if I can get away with using just PVC for now for the cold and updating later after we've saved up more $ and have the place set up to be able to have the plumber come out.

Interesting discussion on that thread. I think I'll have to re-read it when I'm not tired.

 

[frodo]

DISCUSSION of P2904.A and P2904.5 - http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-water-21317/

that is a lot if verbiage,,



that is the IRC Mine is the UPC

international residential code

uniform plumbing code


upc inspectors can recognize the difference between the 2 materials
evidently irc inspectors lack the knowledge to

 

[KULTULZ]

that is a lot if verbiage,,

that is the IRC Mine is the UPC

international residential code

uniform plumbing code

I did not know that!

Learned Factoid of the day...

So there are two authorities? How do you determine which applies to one's job site/home?

upc inspectors can recognize the difference between the 2 materials
evidently irc inspectors lack the knowledge to

I think what they are trying to convey would be the difficulty trying to differentiate PVC being used in distribution over supply regarding hot water distribution.

So in Zanne's (and my) situation one would have to determine which authority the local code goes by?

I am beginning to understand why they won't give me a license...

 

[frodo]

I did not know that!

Learned Factoid of the day...

So there are two authorities? How do you determine which applies to one's job site/home?



I think what they are trying to convey would be the difficulty trying to differentiate PVC being used in distribution over supply regarding hot water distribution.

So in Zanne's (and my) situation one would have to determine which authority the local code goes by?

I am beginning to understand why they won't give me a license...

\\I fell out of my chair laughing at the stuididty of that statement
in the link you provided.

To actually say the inspector ..WE ARE TALKING INSPECTOR

AS in,,,he is supposed to be looking.

can not tell the difference in the pipe is f'n a joke.

If he can not tell the difference then he needs to be flipping burgers and not an inspector.

anyway..

http://www.plumbingforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5654

 

[KULTULZ]

\\I fell out of my chair laughing at the stuididty of that statement
in the link you provided.

To actually say the inspector ..WE ARE TALKING INSPECTOR

AS in,,,he is supposed to be looking.

can not tell the difference in the pipe is f'n a joke.

If he can not tell the difference then he needs to be flipping burgers and not an inspector.

This has been covered before, the reason its not allowed for cold water is the difficulty in verifying that it is only installed for the cold water during the AHJ's 3-5 minute walk through during a rough in inspection.

B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
CMI Certified Master Inspector and Independent
License NC2449 and SC1597

SOURCED- From PVC for water? - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/pvc-water-21317/#ixzz3ibizbR5r




I must be missing something here.

This man is a certified home inspector, not a AHJ inspector.

He is describing an AHJ inspector performing a walk-thru on new construction. If the plumber (contractor) mistakenly or purposefully used PCV for both cold and hot distribution (rather than just cold), it may make it difficult to differentiate on a time limited inspection (say multi-condos for instance) especially if the piping was partially hidden and/or insulated.

What I have learned from this exercise is that PVC water distribution is not a good idea. I was told at my water treatment install that it was not allowed (on this site I believe) and I felt that since the manufacturer supplied it, it was within code. Now I have to PEX it...

anyway..

http://www.plumbingforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5654

THANX!

 

[frodo]

certified home inspectors are noy city/county/state plumbing inspectors.

they are a 3rd party inspector.

basicly, they dont mean squat to us.
we install by the code that is recognised in that area, and inspected by a state inspector

what that guy is saying is rubbish,
ALL piping is required to be marked, and ie required to have the markings visable to the inspetor



the reason you can not use pvc on hot water piping is it will not stand up to the heat and will deform/melt

 

[frodo]

got a pc and a couple hundred bucks? you can be a certified home inspector also

http://info.ahit.com/CatalogRequestPPC.html

http://www.homeinspectioninstitute.com/

 

[KULTULZ]

certified home inspectors are noy city/county/state plumbing inspectors.

they are a 3rd party inspector.

I said that earlier-

This man is a certified home inspector, not a AHJ inspector.

what that guy is saying is rubbish

And that is in your opinion of course...

the reason you can not use pvc on hot water piping is it will not stand up to the heat and will deform/melt

Zanne mentioned that earlier also.

 

[frodo]

LOL..ok....

here is the reason, that PVC and CPVC can not be used together in a system.

It is NOT, because the inspector can not tell the difference between the 2. LOL

for one thing, the piping, BY CODE,,SHALL be marked so that he can tell what pipe it is.

THE UPC clearly states that a system SHALL be of the same piping and not mismatched.
UNLESS pre approved by the inspector.

 

[Zanne]

Thanks, Frodo.

I feel better knowing that the elimination of PVC as a viable water supply line for inside the house is actually a recent change. I'm wondering how recent. I was wondering why my father had told me that PVC was for cold and CPVC was for hot when he was repairing some of the house's plumbing-- and our plumber never said there was anything wrong with it.

Edit: I googled to find if I was right about the 70 degrees and discovered that there are references to PVC leaching at 70 degrees CELSIUS (158 F). The previous material I read did not specify that it was Celsius and I assumed it was Fahrenheit.

I'm enjoying this discussion.

I took the comments about the inspectors not being able to tell the difference in the pipes meaning that while they could differentiate PVC from CPVC, they might not have been able to easily identify if the pipes were being used for hot water or cold water. In new construction that might not be so much of a problem, but if someone is updating or altering existing stuff, it might be harder to trace where everything goes.

Also, I imagine some of the inspectors are either lazy or inept. Just look at things like Holmes Inspection and Holmes on Homes where inspectors missed obvious problems. Hell, I got to play home inspector yesterday when I was checking out the pipes in the house some friends of mine are just entering a lease on. I very much doubt it is actually approved for rental given the condition. Kitchen sink had an S-trap, which I know is very common around here and may have been ok, but the plumbing in the bathroom was just awful. The trap arm actually sloped upward instead of down, then had a grayish fernco fitting to hook it to cast iron (there is a hole in the wall so you can see the plumbing and I ran my hand over it to feel the material) that also seemed to slope upward because of the placement of some wood. I might go over there with a level to check it out later to be sure. And there was no vent in sight, so I don't know if there even are any plumbing vents. I'll have to inspect it more thoroughly later.

I am also pleased that my plumbing code list came in handy. I actually updated it a bit in a Post on my plumbing code Tumblr blog

It includes links to the most recent versions of the codes that I could find online. I will update the plumbing code thread with the links.

My state's plumbing code is based on IPC. I wonder if it has the same rule about the materials needing to be matched.

So, here is a question: Under IPC would I be able to have my underground water supply lines be PVC and then have the transition pieces that Kultulz showed create a bridge to have CPVC for all of the lines inside the house? (the lines all run under the house until they need to go up into the fixtures they service). I do know that some of them are too close to sewer/drain lines though.

on a side note, if anyone has suggestions for the content of my tumblr blog, please let me know. I only have 6 posts thus far as I got sidetracked with life.

 

[KULTULZ]

I took the comments about the inspectors not being able to tell the difference in the pipes meaning that while they could differentiate PVC from CPVC, they might not have been able to easily identify if the pipes were being used for hot water or cold water. In new construction that might not be so much of a problem, but if someone is updating or altering existing stuff, it might be harder to trace where everything goes.

Also, I imagine some of the inspectors are either lazy or inept. Just look at things like Holmes Inspection and Holmes on Homes where inspectors missed obvious problems.

THANK YOU for explaining that. It seems I couldn't get it through correctly.

And don't forget the ones that overlook things for friends are or just looking to have their palm greased.

So, here is a question:

Under IPC would I be able to have my underground water supply lines be PVC and then have the transition pieces that Kultulz showed create a bridge to have CPVC for all of the lines inside the house? (the lines all run under the house until they need to go up into the fixtures they service). I do know that some of them are too close to sewer/drain lines though.

My understanding is that the PVC must terminate at the entry at a shut-off valve and transition to CPVC after that valve. Correct me if I am wrong.

And then you would also have to take into consideration grandfathering.

You would have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to figure some of the code out...

 

[frodo]

apprenticeship last 4 years, then you take a test,to get a license.

then you hold a journeyman's license for 2 years take the masters exam.

or,,,you can be in the trade for 5 years, apply for inspectors job

 

[Zanne]

Does the apprenticeship count as time in the trade?

Thanks for the revision suggestions/corrections in the plumbing code thread, Frodo. I hope you don't mind but I edited the post to include your notes along with info on what a crown vent is and why it is not allowed.

So, if I have PVC from my well-house up to the point that it is about to enter my house, I can have something like a main shutoff and have the shutoff as PVC and then move to CPVC? Or would I need to convert just before and have the shutoff be CPVC?

The underground lines would be too difficult to mess with, but everything under the house could probably be changed out to CPVC?

Or is it ok to go from PVC to PEX? I might have some copper pipes for the showers in the house.

I'm thinking of putting insulation wrap over my water supply lines and using colored tape to mark which is hot and which is cold under the house.

 

[KULTULZ]

So, if I have PVC from my well-house up to the point that it is about to enter my house, I can have something like a main shutoff and have the shutoff as PVC and then move to CPVC? Or would I need to convert just before and have the shutoff be CPVC?

The underground lines would be too difficult to mess with, but everything under the house could probably be changed out to CPVC?

Or is it ok to go from PVC to PEX? I might have some copper pipes for the showers in the house.

I'm thinking of putting insulation wrap over my water supply lines and using colored tape to mark which is hot and which is cold under the house.

Let me try this one subject to a professionals correction-

PVC is OK as an entry but must be terminated @ the entry shut-off valve (I would suggest a ball valve), usually within the house. At that valve's exit, you would then transition to CPVC, PEX and/or copper as you wish (within code).

As for insulating the pipes, with CPVC or PEX, I doubt you would have to insulate as they do not sweat as does copper carrying cold water. You would of course want to insulate the hot water distribution lines.

 

[frodo]

decide what piping you ant to use.

for this post, i am using pvc and cpvc

FIRST WHY?? pvc. because pvc pipe is measursed by the ID

1'' is 1''ID
3/4 IS 3/4id

cpvc and pex is measured by the OD

3/4cpvc is not 3/4ID it is 3/4 OD

WHY does this matter? VOLUME not pressure.
the bigger the pipe, the more volume of water

I would run 1'' pvc from pump house to under the house

using a 1x 3/4 bushing and a 3/4 male adapter
with a threaded ball valve
on the other side of the ball valve
3/4 cpvc threaded male adapter

run 3/4 cpvc to ALL fixtures. reduce down to 1/2 at the fixture angle stop valve

hot water, same thing

insulate both hot and cold to keep from freezing

 

[Zanne]

decide what piping you ant to use.

for this post, i am using pvc and cpvc

FIRST WHY?? pvc. because pvc pipe is measursed by the ID

1'' is 1''ID
3/4 IS 3/4id

cpvc and pex is measured by the OD

3/4cpvc is not 3/4ID it is 3/4 OD

WHY does this matter? VOLUME not pressure.
the bigger the pipe, the more volume of water

I would run 1'' pvc from pump house to under the house

using a 1x 3/4 bushing and a 3/4 male adapter
with a threaded ball valve
on the other side of the ball valve
3/4 cpvc threaded male adapter

run 3/4 cpvc to ALL fixtures. reduce down to 1/2 at the fixture angle stop valve

hot water, same thing

insulate both hot and cold to keep from freezing

Thanks!
Ok, so PVC up to a ball valve (I'm not really sure what size my water pipes are in the pumphouse, I'll have to look, but I think they are 1". So, I have that go to the house and then have a PVC ball valve that connects to a 1" to 3/4 CPVC bushing (or would it be PVC and the adapter would be CPVC)? I'm trying to picture this. I'll probably have to find images of the parts and photoshop them together to get the idea for the layout.

All of our pipes used to be insulated, but the tenants and their dogs removed the insulation.

For the most part, I usually insulate the outside faucet lines.

Is this what you mean by angle stop valve?