Multiple questions about water heater

[frodo]

Kultulz, I agree that I need to have a professional come work on fixing the water heater situation. My problem will be actually getting someone to come out. The regular plumber will come out to snake drains (which I now do myself after he got pissy and overcharged us last time) but when I try to schedule him to come out for other stuff, he blows me off. The heating/cooling guy doesn't answer his phone and doesn't call back half the time.

Thanks for the picture of the discharge setup. Mine doesn't look anything like that. The small pipe goes bends around and goes to the side of the water heater and twists around down through the platform and then down through the floor to the underside of the house.

So the proper setup would be to have it going straight down to a bucket or receptacle of some sort?

When I went to the local hardware store and asked about the pipe for the T&P valve, the store owner didn't know what I was talking about (he took over the business of his late father). He also started telling me that things don't really need to be done to code because stuff worked fine before they made up all of the rules. *rollseyes* I wonder if that was his father's philosophy as well. His father was a licensed contractor and a nice guy, but I was advised to never hire him because he did shoddy work.

And, yes, Lowes did charge for the installation.

I still can't find that bulldog raised drip pan thingy for sale anywhere. I wonder if I could just lift the thing up on bricks or some other sort of platform that I could wedge under it and then have some sort of cheap plastic container underneath to catch drips. I can use velcro or something to make it stay in place under the spout.

My one reservation about the type of ball valve in the picture you provided is that I think my cats would be able to knock it open accidentally. There used to be a door to close off this area, but when the AC people were working, they knocked one of the doors off and it got broken and we never replaced it. I can probably get some hinges and make a new door though. Maybe I'll make a bifold one so it won't block the hallway when opened.

.............................
10 bucks at ho depot

for your pop off..you do not need a plumber

buy some CPVC pipe 3/4''

get a 3/4'' cpvc male adapter thread it into your T&P valve

using elbows///route the pipe outside

use cpvc glue

to raise your heater,,,use bricks not wood, empty the water

tip it to one side, put a brick under it, tip it to the other side put another brick under it..use a minimun 4 bricks

 

[KULTULZ]

Mr kultulz ,

...uh-oh...

You are 100% correct in that the manufacture suggests the pop off to be tested any where from 1 time every 6 months to 1 time every 3 years.
depends on the manufacture.

they contend the valve can get full of sediment and fail to operate

.they also are in the business of selling pop offs.

I disagree, sediment settles, particulates float

to me, this is an area where the trade person, and common since trump manufactures recommendations.

being that I have installed thousands of w/h's and have seen the results of using them as a "vent"

I will stand by my observation that a pop off is best left alone.

I guess it is an experience vs book learning thing

MR Frodo,

First let me say that I respect your experience, the profession and yours and others participation on this type of forum.

That being said, that quote was contained within a very informative website.

Manufacturers do indeed sell valves along with most service parts, but they also have the need to inform consumers of how their product(s) work and to maintain so as to limit their liability to the ill-informed consumer.

I will continue to flick my bic on a regular basis to ascertain proper operation whether due to sediment (that may disturbed due to the dip tube and other factors), suspended particulates in the water or simply a defective valve.

Your point is well taken.

 

[frodo]

Zanne...I forgot to tell you

code states the pop off be routed to the outside or a approved Floor drain.

it can not just point to the floor into a bucket or into the pan

 

[KULTULZ]

Zanne...I forgot to tell you

code states the pop off be routed to the outside or a approved Floor drain.

it can not just point to the floor into a bucket or into the pan

...I did not know that...

Today's newly learned FACTOID OF THE DAY...

I was under the impression it could point to the drain pan. You enjoy throwing around all of that learned knowledge, don't you?

...sigh...

Back to the drawing board...

 

[KULTULZ]

OK... Concerning not using the TP VALVE as a vent while draining a WH...

IF the WH is plumbed in with a shutoff for both hot and cold (the hot shutoff being there to not allow the entire house hot side to completely drain), how would you vent the draining?

(KULTULZ going to put on armored vest )

 

[frodo]

their is no need to put a valve on the hot side of a water heater. only, on the cold side.

the cold water valve will kill the whole hot system

when you drain the wh, open a sink valve so it can get air to drain.

after the heater is drained, the hot water piping will be drained also.

when filling, open a faucet.

even, if you use the T&P as a vent. you willl still have air in the tank. and when you turn on the hot it will vent thru the first fauct that is opened

I do not look at it as "throwing around learned knowledge" I look at as helping the DIY people on this site.
I figure if they are going to do the work themselves, I might as well make sure it is done safely


first thing in my code book

 

[donald_w]

their is no need to put a valve on the hot side of a water heater. only, on the cold side.

the cold water valve will kill the whole hot system

I have two water heaters plumbed in parallel. Both have a valve on the cold side only. Shutting one off leaves the system (and that heater) pressurized which means I have to take both out of service to flush or repair either. I've thought about adding valves to the hot side so I could take one out of service at a time. Is there any reason not to?

 

[frodo]

no. safety reason not to have 2

if 2 heaters then it is an isolation valve.

with 1 heater it is a waste of money

your 2 heaters, are they piped like this.

....notice....

the piping, is mirriored on each heater,

the piping from the tee to the heater is the same length on each heater

WHY??

if not piped "mirrored" then the cold water will only flow to one heater
makeing the other WH a storage tank
water will travel path of least resistance.

 

[KULTULZ]

Outgassing at Faucets -

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pa...eshooting/Tanklets/outgassing-at-faucets.html

 

[frodo]

DAMNNNNN KUltulz...I think you just found a fart'n water heater. them anodebeans will do it every time !!!

 

[KULTULZ]

DAMNNNNN KUltulz...I think you just found a fart'n water heater. them anodebeans will do it every time !!!

They should add to the instructions to roll the anode rods before install...

 

[Zanne]

Thanks for all of the replies. I thin the brick sitting in the pan idea is a good one. I will have to see how heavy the heater is once it is empty.

Thanks for the info about the T&P having to vent outside or to an approved drain. I wonder if I should have a bucket or something underneath or some thing to discourage the cats from sitting under it when it is discharged.

The anode thing is interesting. I'll have to examine my water heater and see if I can locate it. I'm guessing I will need to have the heater emptied before I replace the rod. Is there a standard size one? Or would I need to look for a specific type one? Magnesium is the type to get?


Kultulz, what do you mean by "roll the rod"?

And Frodo, when filling the water heater, I should have the hot water tap opened a little to vent gases? Or should it be opened fully?

Edit: I climbed up on a chair to try to get closer to see the top of the water heater. I had to hold the camera up and out to get these pictures. I still can't actually see on top of it that well.

From the color of the cold water pipe, I think its PVC instead of CPVC. D'oh! (I would wipe it off, but I can't actually reach that far over.

Then I noticed this:

Is it just me, or is something wrong with that white part? It looks like it either melted or is not on straight. Is it supposed to look like that? Is that the part where the anodized rod is supposed to go?

Then I noticed the electrical wire. I can't see well enough in there.. but does that look like paper or something spread out near the bottom? Like there had been knob and tube or something?

I'm thinking I will have to slap an elbow on the cold water pipe to bring it closer so I can put a shutoff on it that I can actually reach.

The drain for the T&P valve will be annoying since I will have to open up the air conditioning circulation area and hope there is enough room to squeeze in there to run the new line. I'll have to pull out the old one metal one and seal up where it used to be, and then seal around the new one to make sure we don't have another incident of a copperhead snake climbing up in there and dying.

 

[KULTULZ]

The anode thing is interesting. I'll have to examine my water heater and see if I can locate it. I'm guessing I will need to have the heater emptied before I replace the rod. Is there a standard size one? Or would I need to look for a specific type one? Magnesium is the type to get?

If the install manual is not available, you need to take the make and model number and GOOGLE it to hopefully find a manual online.

Kultulz, what do you mean by "roll the rod"?

Edit: I climbed up on a chair to try to get closer to see the top of the water heater. I had to hold the camera up and out to get these pictures. I still can't actually see on top of it that well.

From the color of the cold water pipe, I think its PVC instead of CPVC. D'oh! (I would wipe it off, but I can't actually reach that far over.

Maybe the install was a teaching session for an apprentice showing all the things NOT TO DO on an install...

The drain for the T&P valve will be annoying since I will have to open up the air conditioning circulation area and hope there is enough room to squeeze in there to run the new line. I'll have to pull out the old one metal one and seal up where it used to be, and then seal around the new one to make sure we don't have another incident of a copperhead snake climbing up in there and dying.

Where (approximately) do you live not to have licensed/bonded plumbing service available?

 

[frodo]

cpvc is ok for hot water pvc for cold

your ok'


but..ZANNE,,a w/h is 5' tall, if you cant reach it. you must be like my sister.

here is a song i tormented her with for years and years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=1NvgLkuEtkA


or..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=26&v=CS2PDhBZqKw

 

[frodo]

he reason a pop off is piped to outside of floor drain, the water is extremly hot, can burn you

it would hurt the kitty cat

 

[Zanne]

Kultulz, I live out in the woods near a wild life preservation just outside of a small town in central Louisiana. The area has been described as a "dead man's land" for services. Despite having the highest taxes in the state, the county is rather poor. I had to get someone from outside the county to do my septic tank installation because there were no licensed installers in this one. There are only two licensed plumbers but no more licensed residential contractors (the only ones are now deceased).

There are not many places for people to get an education and there are fewer that teach trades like plumbing and construction. Some of the trades are only taught to prison inmates. I wanted to enroll in some classes at the local votech but was told I couldn't enroll in them because they were taught inside the prison and were only available to inmates.

I believe the model info and such is on a sticker on the front of the water heater.

Frodo, I was thinking of adding an elbow to the spot you pointed to and adding a little bit of length with a shutoff so I can actually reach it.

It's a 50 gallon tank and the water heater is on a rather high platform. There is enough space in front of the water heater that it makes it hard for me to reach, even when on a ladder. I'm 5'5" but I have a short torso. My arms are not very long and my chest tends to get in the way. I can't bend forward to pick something up without hitting keys on my keyboard with my chest. LOL.

What do you guys make of the paper-looking stuff from the electrical line?

I forgot to mention that according to Louisiana plumbing code, PVC is NOT allowed for any water lines in the house. Apparently chemicals from it start to leach into the water at about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The code only allows copper, CPVC, and PEX. PVC is only allowed underground where it is cooler. I think it can be used above only for non-potable water.

I will definitely have to set up something under the house to catch water from the T&P valve should I ever have to use it so my kitties will not be under it.

I love the Short People song! I never heard the other one before, but I like it.

 

[KULTULZ]

Kultulz, I live out in the woods near a wild life preservation just outside of a small town in central Louisiana. The area has been described as a "dead man's land" for services.

One of them Rajun Cajuns I suspect?

What do you guys make of the paper-looking stuff from the electrical line?

It appears to be the paper liner(s) used to separate the individual wires within the cable sheathing. It is usually removed entirely when cut and stripped. Guess the guy just pulled it back on install. It (your cable) is a very heavy cable whereas it only generally requires 10/2 (w GRD) NM-b cable.

EDIT- And the electrical cable be contained within a protective sheathing.

Electric Water Heater Circuit

The following is an example of installing an electrical circuit for a 240 volt electric water heater in a home:

◾A typical electric water heater requires a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

This circuit is generally provided by installing a 10/2 NM with ground cable to the location of the water heater. If the location of the water heater requires a disconnect then a 240 volt 30 amp rated switch or disconnect should be installed at the water heater location.

◾Protecting the Circuit Wiring

If the circuit wiring will transition to surface wiring then the cable can either have the outside sheath removed where it may be sleeved into a protective PVC or EMT conduit where the wire is protected from damage and the conduit is attached to the surface as required.

◾Installing the Junction Box and Securing the Conduit

The circuit wiring is then typically attached to the water heater junction box using a supported flexible conduit and approved fittings as required.

◾Wiring Connections a the Water Heater

The water heater will come with an electrical junction box which is typically located on the top of the unit. The junction box is recessed into the top enclosure of the water heater where one screw secures the cover plate where the main wires are located. The circuit wires are attached to the wires of the water heater using approved wire connectors. The circuit ground wire is attached to the green ground screw and terminal which is located in the water heater junction box.

◾Specific Information for Your Water Heater

Be sure to consult the Installation Manual or Owners Manual which is provided with your water heater for specific information. Consult your local building department for specific codes which apply to your area and project application.

SOURCE of INFO- http://ask-the-electrician.com/installing-an-electric-water-heater-circuit/

Video Showing Proper Install- [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl7ea59dFdQ[/ame]

I forgot to mention that according to Louisiana plumbing code, PVC is NOT allowed for any water lines in the house. Apparently chemicals from it start to leach into the water at about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The code only allows copper, CPVC, and PEX. PVC is only allowed underground where it is cooler. I think it can be used above only for non-potable water.

Correct. The guy(s) must have installed the WH with only the few supplies they had on the truck. Inspection was not a factor.

 

[KULTULZ]

I need an on-field ruling here-

I forgot to mention that according to Louisiana plumbing code, PVC is NOT allowed for any water lines in the house. Apparently chemicals from it start to leach into the water at about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The code only allows copper, CPVC, and PEX. PVC is only allowed underground where it is cooler. I think it can be used above only for non-potable water.

There is PVC on her inlet supply. I understand PVC is not allowed, only CPVC.

But,

I have my well water filtration system plumbed with SCH 80 PVC. This was supplied by the filter manufacturer as part of the install kit. After the filtration system, the PVC is transitioned to CPVC for house supply.

Am I within code here?

 

[Zanne]

I need an on-field ruling here-



There is PVC on her inlet supply. I understand PVC is not allowed, only CPVC.

But,

I have my well water filtration system plumbed with SCH 80 PVC. This was supplied by the filter manufacturer as part of the install kit. After the filtration system, the PVC is transitioned to CPVC for house supply.

Am I within code here?

From what I understand of the code, you can have the PVC in the ground and leading out from the well up to the house, but it must convert to cpvc, pex, or copper before entering the house because the temperature above the ground level is likely to be above 70 degrees.

Basically, the pipe can be PVC so long as it is expected to stay below 70 degrees or else the plastic chemicals leach into the water. I think the exception may be with non-potable water-- like if its just going to be for houses to wash things. I could be wrong on that though.

Btw, here's the info on the label of the water heater.

Kultulz, what adapter did you use to connect the PVC to CPVC? I will probably need to cut off some PVC and replace it with CPVC and I want to have an appropriate way to bridge them.

 

[KULTULZ]

You will find the install manual here- http://www.uscraftmaster.com/literature/