I’m so disappointed. I thought you cared about the kids. Do it for the kids sir……..Please go green so they and them can grow up and not pay the consequences of your hot water pump.
Watts Hot Water Recirculating System
- Thread starter Mitchell-DIY-Guy
- Start date
Help Support Plumbing Forums:
You laugh. You just go ahead and laugh but They,Them, We, She, her, him and He aren’t laughing. They’re the youth of today and the future of tomorrow and the past and present. We and They must all stand with him her and them and fight for the children.
If you can’t do it for everyone and anyone else then please have a heart, have a soul and do it for the children.
Can I count on you to donate to my gofundme for my transition into the betterment of ALL OF US and especially Me and Mine ? I, me and mine hope so and I’ll be checking the account.
If you can’t do it for everyone and anyone else then please have a heart, have a soul and do it for the children.
Can I count on you to donate to my gofundme for my transition into the betterment of ALL OF US and especially Me and Mine ? I, me and mine hope so and I’ll be checking the account.
I have a cashier's check ready for you, but i only want to give you $10,000 from my $25,000 cashier's check. Please send me $15,000 by certified check, and then i will send you my $25,000 check. Please hurry, my uncle is the King of Nairobi, and he has plenty of extra money for us!
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
Well that’s a MASSIVE increase from $12 to $133. Even if the low bill was at a NG price low, and the $133 at a high, you’ve got a TREMENDOUS consumption increase somewhere somehow. I’ve got two gas furnaces, gas dryer, gas water heater, gas range, gas grill, and gas pizza oven. Only in the dead of winter do I see anything that high. Laundry done daily. Range used multiple times a day. Grill used nearly daily (I use it as an oven frequently). Pizza oven weekly.
Maybe you’ve got a leak?
While my neighbors were on vacation I dug a trench and installed a gas line from their meter to my house.
Works great and I don’t get a gas bill, they and them get it.
This donkey almost bit me at the zoo. I was feeding him peanuts. Reminds me of the King of Nairobi’s nephew.
Works great and I don’t get a gas bill, they and them get it.
This donkey almost bit me at the zoo. I was feeding him peanuts. Reminds me of the King of Nairobi’s nephew.
Last edited:
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
Nice!
My old business partner lived on a mountain in the woods in southern Vermont. Had 10 acres. His heat was a dual fuel furnace, wood and propane. He loved poking around with the wood nearly constantly in the winter, adjusting the air, the thermostat, etc. Propane is and was ungodly expensive. It's only used by people who live far from others so when they get their propane bill and scream they don't bother the neighbors.
Anyway, we used to see all these propane tanker trucks on the highways in Vermont...don't think for a second we didn't think of hijacking the truck, driving it into the woods for a several year's supply of propane. As violence wasn't in our nature, what to do with the driver became the issue!
bkspero
Member
One of the themes of this thread is focused on the cost of piping heat loss from hot water lines of systems with recirculating hot water. That got me thinking...where does that "lost" heat go? Presuming the hot water lines are not located in an outside wall, attic, or unheated crawl space, doesn't it eventually get into the conditioned space? I know in the apartments and the houses I've lived in, all of the hot water lines were either located under the floor of the first living floor (in a conditioned basement) or within an inside wall. So the heat wasn't really lost, but just took a longer route to heating the living space.
If that's correct, then much (maybe even most?) of the gas that was burned to produce that "lost" heat wasn't wasted, as it offset a similar amount of gas that was not needed to heat the living space via the furnace or boiler. The net result would be little or no increased consumption of natural gas for heating. No (if not, why??).
The problem gets more complicated during cooling season, as the heat that is "lost" to the living space via hot water pipe losses requires that extra electricity be consumed by air conditioning to compensate for the extra heating from the water pipes. So the negative impact might be more apparent during cooling season. But I didn't see responses that cited such behavior (full disclosure...I haven't read all the notes in this thread, so this may have been addressed and I missed it...if so, sorry). So it doesn't seem to be a big issue for people.
If that's correct, then much (maybe even most?) of the gas that was burned to produce that "lost" heat wasn't wasted, as it offset a similar amount of gas that was not needed to heat the living space via the furnace or boiler. The net result would be little or no increased consumption of natural gas for heating. No (if not, why??).
The problem gets more complicated during cooling season, as the heat that is "lost" to the living space via hot water pipe losses requires that extra electricity be consumed by air conditioning to compensate for the extra heating from the water pipes. So the negative impact might be more apparent during cooling season. But I didn't see responses that cited such behavior (full disclosure...I haven't read all the notes in this thread, so this may have been addressed and I missed it...if so, sorry). So it doesn't seem to be a big issue for people.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
You are correct. When I lived in Michigan we used heat from about early September through mid May, with some exceptions. So, 8 months of the year those standby losses go into conditioned--heated space. You can always turn off a recirculating system during the cooling season but we never did.
Here in NC the heating season is different of course but we are still using heat for many months, and cooling for many more.
Re: NG gas consumption, it becomes a big difference when we were paying $1 a therm, then $4 a therm, now back to $1.50 a therm, all due to the NG being shut down because the pink haired people think that since "Orange Man" likes gas, it must be bad. No leaks here, this is how much our NG bill has jumped.
I just found out that our electricity just got approval from the ( Public Utilities Commission) PUC, who are all appointed Democrats, and Governor Newsom buddies of his, to authorize a 46% price increase in electricity next year.
I just found out that our electricity just got approval from the ( Public Utilities Commission) PUC, who are all appointed Democrats, and Governor Newsom buddies of his, to authorize a 46% price increase in electricity next year.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
Back to the original topic.
I went to my clients yesterday, and installed the replacement valve under her kitchen sink. Then I went to the water heater, and realized that somebody had played with that because the timing on it was all wrong. So I set it for two on periods, based on her living schedule. These were 6 to 10 AM, and 6 to 10 PM. I told her to call me at 6:30 that evening and let me know if she had instant hot water. She did and she did.
What was alarming was that the licensed professional plumber had zero idea of what this thing was, screwed around with it for a while and finally gave up and removed it all. She probably charged her for the privilege. I spent a few minutes here on the forum, double checking against my reading of their instruction, manual online, and the installation was a breeze.
As the replacement valves are like $70 each (in a kit) and there were two of them in her house we only put one in yesterday. She wanted to ensure that everything was going to work.* Since it did, I will go back next week and install the second one in the master bath, along with some other Handyman work.
* It’s not that she didn’t trust me, it’s that the once working system stopped working, client called a licensed professional plumber, who spent a bunch of time with this thing, and their response was ripping it all out. So, when a handyman says he can fix it expect a little doubt. Knowing rates around here, I would suspect that my rate for fixing the thing was considerably less than the plumbers ripping it out… you professionals here certainly knew about this.
I went to my clients yesterday, and installed the replacement valve under her kitchen sink. Then I went to the water heater, and realized that somebody had played with that because the timing on it was all wrong. So I set it for two on periods, based on her living schedule. These were 6 to 10 AM, and 6 to 10 PM. I told her to call me at 6:30 that evening and let me know if she had instant hot water. She did and she did.
What was alarming was that the licensed professional plumber had zero idea of what this thing was, screwed around with it for a while and finally gave up and removed it all. She probably charged her for the privilege. I spent a few minutes here on the forum, double checking against my reading of their instruction, manual online, and the installation was a breeze.
As the replacement valves are like $70 each (in a kit) and there were two of them in her house we only put one in yesterday. She wanted to ensure that everything was going to work.* Since it did, I will go back next week and install the second one in the master bath, along with some other Handyman work.
* It’s not that she didn’t trust me, it’s that the once working system stopped working, client called a licensed professional plumber, who spent a bunch of time with this thing, and their response was ripping it all out. So, when a handyman says he can fix it expect a little doubt. Knowing rates around here, I would suspect that my rate for fixing the thing was considerably less than the plumbers ripping it out… you professionals here certainly knew about this.
Last edited:
I’ve never ever had a customer ask to see my plumbing license in over 30 years of plumbing. Not once…..
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
But I bet some new customers trying to vett you looked it up on the state website—and they discovered you were licensed (which in most places means you’re insured) and you’d never know…
There’s a number of electricians around here offering their services and claiming to be licensed…but their company names and given names aren’t in the state license list.
I “keep” two good licensed plumbers (one man operations) in my back pocket and often give out their cards to clients. I’ll install a faucet, dishwasher or disposal but a water heater or similar large project gets passed up to the pros.
Website just went up a few years ago with that info. Also I’ve never had anyone verify it’s me……I could be anyone my business has hired.
But that doesn’t change the fact that no one has ever asked me if I’m licensed.
I routinely go behind and repair/correct work done by landscapers, handymen, neighbors, friends, family and especially TILE setters, they’re the worst. Most of these customers say they’ll never tell the person who screwed it up.
Probably out of fear they won’t get any help in the future or they don’t want to hurt the persons feelings that tried to help or both.
As far as being licensed, that really doesn’t mean as much as most people would think. It just means you passed the state examining boards easy test. It really shouldn’t be the only factor into hiring a plumber.
I know a few that I have no idea how they ever passed the test and I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t pass and the state just “ sold “ them their plumbing license anyway. That’s how our state examining board is funded, by plumbers buying their licenses every year and taking tests.
So if the state board wants new cars and a raise then they better sell some licenses. Not enough people passing the test ? Ok no problem, make the test easier. And they do it……so please don’t think they don’t, I’ve heard it with my own ears from the top men in the state. It’s a joke to them.
These people are the ones who VOTE for their self getting a pay raise, new cars, trips to Vegas for trade shows etc. It’s a money grab disguised as protecting public health. Its a fabricated made up job for flunkies to milk the system.
Probably out of fear they won’t get any help in the future or they don’t want to hurt the persons feelings that tried to help or both.
As far as being licensed, that really doesn’t mean as much as most people would think. It just means you passed the state examining boards easy test. It really shouldn’t be the only factor into hiring a plumber.
I know a few that I have no idea how they ever passed the test and I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t pass and the state just “ sold “ them their plumbing license anyway. That’s how our state examining board is funded, by plumbers buying their licenses every year and taking tests.
So if the state board wants new cars and a raise then they better sell some licenses. Not enough people passing the test ? Ok no problem, make the test easier. And they do it……so please don’t think they don’t, I’ve heard it with my own ears from the top men in the state. It’s a joke to them.
These people are the ones who VOTE for their self getting a pay raise, new cars, trips to Vegas for trade shows etc. It’s a money grab disguised as protecting public health. Its a fabricated made up job for flunkies to milk the system.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
Well three cheers for your state coming into the 20th century. Too bad it’s the 21st-century. Online license checking has been standard in most states for decades; you not only check a license you check the complaints (if any) and how the licensee dealt with them. I’ve never asked anybody for a license either but boy I’ve checked them…
And it’s pretty common practice for a licensed plumber to send somebody without a license to do the work, but they’re still responsible.
And it’s pretty common practice for a licensed plumber to send somebody without a license to do the work, but they’re still responsible.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
And by the way, it is not easy here to get a plumbing license. Maybe the test is easy but you need two years of schooling combined with 2000 hours of training with a licensed plumber. If you don’t want to go to school then you need 4000 hours, so you have to be pretty serious. It’s not easy. The test may be easy but getting to the test is not.
We need the "orange man", a.k.a., the greatest President we have ever had. If they rig another election, Newsome will be the next puppet master for Obummmeeerrr.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
And the bottom line which engendered this discussion is that a licensed professional plumber had no idea what the Watts recirculating system is. 10 minutes with her smart phone and she could’ve figured this out. Instead, she spent a lot of time ripping it all out. That’s not the way a licensed plumber should operate. And despite what you say when somebody hires somebody with a license, they expect complete professional knowledge and if they don’t know they shouldn’t charge and should walk away.
What should be and what reality is are usually way different.
It’s not my responsibility to be current on every plumbing product just because I’m a plumber. It’s my duty to investigate and find problems, conduct tests and figure out solutions. I’m only tested on current codes and some plumbing principles mainly pertaining to health and safety. Oh and some business and TAX questions as a Master plumber so they’ll be sure to get their money out of ya.
There are plenty of products that shouldn’t be legal but big money companies back the product and big box sells it. Amazon also.
Some jurisdictions are very strict and do not allow most junk but that doesn’t stop big box from selling it and a homeowner, friend, handyman from buying it and installing it. Most people figure that if big box sells it then it’s legal. That’s not true.
Some jurisdictions are very strict and do not allow most junk but that doesn’t stop big box from selling it and a homeowner, friend, handyman from buying it and installing it. Most people figure that if big box sells it then it’s legal. That’s not true.
