Cold Hotwater Base

[Undertaker3106]

Took several photos for you guys. I was incorrect. The curculator pump photo is included and yes it is pointing down or back towards boiler. The hot feed line and cold return lines runs Tee at the boiler and run to the front of the house and rear of the house. And if you can see in the photos as the lines run and return they branch off to smaller lines and feed hot water and return hot water to the respective main lines. The system is not zoned at all. One thermo in living room. The second floor gets its heat by running the feed and return lines up the inside of the walls and into the room above. Each radiator has a pipe goin in and coming out of it. Reply if you’d like
To see any more photos.

 

[Diehard]

Not sure if I understand your statement, "I was incorrect. The curculator pump photo is included and yes it is pointing down or back towards boiler." So that makes it the RETURN LINE.
You had said, "The hot feed line is the copper line coming out from the left side with the quarter turn valve. The return in the cast iron line going into the top back right."

Now you have said earlier, "There is a main feed line with a line going to each heating device. Then there is a main return line picking up each return line from each heating device."
Did you actually confirm, for example, that those two small lines shown connecting to that main in Circle "A" were, in fact, connected to two different radiators?

Also, is there any way you can tell which lines go up to the second floor? And if those lines share a riser with a radiator from the first floor.

One of the reasons it looks suspicious is that the piping I see in circles "A" & "B" happen to be how some of the old system were designed. With a small line (coming off on the high side of the main) as a feed to a radiator and a larger line(connecting to the center of the mains) returning from THE SAME radiator.

 

[Undertaker3106]

Not sure if I understand your statement, "I was incorrect. The curculator pump photo is included and yes it is pointing down or back towards boiler." So that makes it the RETURN LINE.
You had said, "The hot feed line is the copper line coming out from the left side with the quarter turn valve. The return in the cast iron line going into the top back right."

Now you have said earlier, "There is a main feed line with a line going to each heating device. Then there is a main return line picking up each return line from each heating device."
Did you actually confirm, for example, that those two small lines shown connecting to that main in Circle "A" were, in fact, connected to two different radiators?

Also, is there any way you can tell which lines go up to the second floor? And if those lines share a riser with a radiator from the first floor.

One of the reasons it looks suspicious is that the piping I see in circles "A" & "B" happen to be how some of the old system were designed. With a small line (coming off on the high side of the main) as a feed to a radiator and a larger line(connecting to the center of the mains) returning from THE SAME radiator.

View attachment 22206

Diehard,
I stated I was incorrect because I thought the circulator pump would be on the Feed line not on the return. (learning as I go) When you asked about the arrow direction that’s when I realized I was backwards on how the boiler works. I can tell which lines go up to second floor. This was installed way after the house was built. Original house had wood stoves in each room as I found when gutting each room. All they did was drill holes in the floor and run the lines up the interior wall. You can see cast iron piping in everyroom going to the second floor. So circle A you can see two lines coming off. That would going to two separate radiators in this instance, one in kitchen and one to 2nd floor bedroom which has a new baseboard radiator. In circle B that has two lines going off it. One to the kitchen radiator and one to the 2nd floor bedroom with new baseboard radiator. There are no risers in house. When they tied in a new rad they went back to the main line and did not Tee off of a branch line. Everything branches off directly from that main large diameter line, and comes directly back to that other large diameter line. Trying to explain it the best I can with the minor HVAC experience I have. Everything I’ve learned so far on this thread is making sense. Thanks in advance.

 

[Diehard]

Just thought of a question which may help to answer how the second floor gets fed.
How many radiators on each of the two floors?
How many branch lines do you have coming off each main in the basement?

ALREADY ANSWERED ABOVE.

 

[Undertaker3106]

I have no idea what I am talking about with radiators. So please forgive if totally stupid.

Meanwhile, could you add a 2nd circulator pump on the first floor, where the hot feed line goes upstairs?

To boost the pressure up there, and it could also create a zone for its own thermostat.

Maybe the baseboard units are too tight, so hot water is taking the easy way home and just going through the old first floor cast iron rads?

What about partially choking back all the first floor cast iron radiator hot water valves, to force more water upstairs?

Jeff,

I am going to set my 1st floor rads to half open position to see if that boots water upstairs. They are all set to full open now.

 

[Undertaker3106]

Just thought of a question which may help to answer how the second floor gets fed.
How many radiators on each of the two floors?
How many branch lines do you have coming off each main in the basement?

Kitchen - 1
Dining- 1
Living Room - 2
Foyer - 1 (totally different style radiator than any others I have)
2nd Floor Bath - 1 (Removed & Replaced with electric base)
3 bedrooms 2nd Floor- 1 HW Baseboard in each.

The branches off the main are obvious in where they go and represent the number of Rads and HW Base I have in the house.

 

[Diehard]

OH...SO SORRY. Don't know how I misread that. Have to put my glasses on. I thought it said "correct".

So the second floor is connected directly to the mains in the basement. I'm getting the picture now. I don't think it was brought up till now.

I assume you purged all the air out of those second floor radiators.

 

[Jeff Handy]

You might get some drips out of the stems of those old valves, when you go to half closed.

They will pbly plug themselves up after a while, crud in the system will likely flow there and seal it.

You can wrap a rag around it to help the leak just evaporate, until it seals up.
Or place a rag or shallow pan under it, of course, if there is room for that.

I know, super obvious.

 

[Undertaker3106]

OH...SO SORRY. Don't know how I misread that. Have to put my glasses on. I thought it said "correct".

So the second floor is connected directly to the mains in the basement. I'm getting the picture now. I don't think it was brought up till now.

I assume you purged all the air out of those second floor radiators.

Yes, when I refilled the system I went around to each CI Rad, and new HWBase and left bleeder wide open until the new water ran steadily with no air sputtering.

 

[Undertaker3106]

You might get some drips out of the stems of those old valves, when you go to half closed.

They will pbly plug themselves up after a while, crud in the system will likely flow there and seal it.

You can wrap a rag around it to help the leak just evaporate, until it seals up.
Or place a rag or shallow pan under it, of course, if there is room for that.

I know, super obvious.

Closed the valve on the CI Rads downstairs and cracked open just a hair. Rad is getting plenty warm enough and it is diverting hot water to the new rads. Leaving heat turned up a while to see how well it works. But That trick is working alittle.

 

[Diehard]

Not surprised at the results of decreasing the flow to first floor increased heat to second floor.
Still doesn't answer why the second floor C.I. radiators were getting much better flow of hot water before the switch to baseboard.

 

[Undertaker3106]

Right. Because I’ve never adjusted the control on individual rads. Just left them wide open. Except in the old room that we’re unused. Still I have a fellow fireman and former HVAC Tech that will be stopping by to look and plan a total re-plum next spring.

 

[Diehard]

Well if you don't resolve this problem to your satisfaction, I was thinking that it may be worth while to consider intercepting those 3 added 2nd floor radiators in the basement level and add a separate zone for them. Shouldn't be much piping work. Would of course have to add a dedicated circulator and a thermostat for the 2nd floor zone. Much better control.
But I wouldn't rush into it.
Did you have your baseboard vents on the down stream ends?
Try venting them again.

 

[Undertaker3106]

Nothing on 3rd floor. But a old attic I don’t use and removed staircase to to expand master bedroom. I do plan on taking a rad or two down to basement to provide a little heat for that area. Yes I do have bleeders on the return side. I actually just bled them again here a few hours ago. Some air did sputter out. 2nd floor doesn’t take a lot of heat to be comfortable. Went from 0 insulation to insulating all wall cavities. 1st floor stays drafty and will be soon subject to my jack of all trades gut and refinish. Heating/AC definitely my weakest link. Off topic but what I’m working with and a after finished shot of nursery December 2018.

 

[Diehard]

Sorry...2nd floor!

Looks like fun.

 

[Jeff Handy]

You can add a sturdy pull-down stair ladder to get up to that 3rd floor attic space, if you haven’t already.
Just use part of the old stairway opening framing.
Very easy to install, and you can slide a big layer of insulation over the hatchway on your way down the ladder, to keep things toasty in newly expanded room.

That big dry storage space is priceless, and could be a play room or man cave someday.
Maybe even throw up some metal spiral stairs from a kit, very compact and trendy!

 

[Jeff Handy]

BTW, nice work on your remodeling jobs!

 

[Undertaker3106]

BTW, nice work on your remodeling jobs!

Thanks,

I have put a access panel in the ceiling. The attic at peak 5 feet tall. I did tho prepare that space to add central air to the 2nd floor, ran all my lines inside the interior wall cavity to basement. Bought this house very cheap and plans are to refinish it and move out of town or build new, with a nice return on this property.