Yes we did kinda get off of the original topic. I had a customer when I was still working that had a shower with four body shower heads and the regular shower head. They had galvanized piping and they lost pressure. Was going to have to replace piping with all new and they didn't want to do it because of expense as it was upstairs. Not sure how it would have turned out. They had a large water main coming into the house. Jughead may have to do some re-piping.
waterfall shower
- Thread starter jughead
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I'm not at all adverse to redoing the pipes since I'm under the house anyway right now, moving pipes around and out of the way because I have to cut the joists to accommodate a dropped floor so that I can build out the sloped mortar base since it will be a curbless stall. Now that I can visualize the minimal amount of water outflowing from a 5 gallon bucket over a one minute period, the volume sure sounds more like a drip rather than the waterfall flow that I envisioned. I guess that is why the photos that show the combination rainfall and waterfall showerheads seem to show hardly any substantive water flow. So, if that is the case, how do I modify the system to allow for more water volume ? Will increasing the pipe to 3/4" do any good at all ? and if so, which pipe ? Since most mixing valves are 1/2" I suspect that using a 3/4" pipe at the inlet side of the mix valve then reducing it down to 1/2" for the mixing valve connection would seem to defeat the purpose of a larger diameter pipe and using a 3/4" pipe at the mixing outlet to the waterfall head seems an unlikely solution especially since the run would only be about 6' - 8' at most from the mix valve to the ceiling height ( the outlet head would be placed between 9' and 12' because of the stepped up ceiling height).
Is there an easy solution short of installing a pump to increase pressure ? Somehow, the 5 gallon bucket analogy doesn't seem right since if I turn on an outside hose full blast, it would seem to produce a pretty strong stream of water; not that I'm questioning RenewDave's technical knowledge since he's an expert and I have zero knowledge, but it just seems less than what my limited experience suggests might be the case. I will test fill a 5 gallon bucket outside and see how long it takes to fill it up; seems like less than a minute..... (maybe outside outlets are not subject to the interior valve limitations?) I'll test and will get back.
RenewDave, thanks much for the insight and analysis.
Is there an easy solution short of installing a pump to increase pressure ? Somehow, the 5 gallon bucket analogy doesn't seem right since if I turn on an outside hose full blast, it would seem to produce a pretty strong stream of water; not that I'm questioning RenewDave's technical knowledge since he's an expert and I have zero knowledge, but it just seems less than what my limited experience suggests might be the case. I will test fill a 5 gallon bucket outside and see how long it takes to fill it up; seems like less than a minute..... (maybe outside outlets are not subject to the interior valve limitations?) I'll test and will get back.
RenewDave, thanks much for the insight and analysis.
So I went outside and turned the faucet at full-open and it filled a 5 gallon bucket in 25 seconds (the hose 5/8"). The water flow is probably more than adequate for what I envision might be necessary. But the rate of flow causes a lot of turbulence, so it will take a lot of trial and error to have a controlled water flow for a waterfall pattern. That being said, I'm sure I am confused over the terminology of a Moentrol valve. RenewDave, are you referring to what would be a common style shower mixing valve or is it a standard regulator valve or something similar ? I think that maybe the outside faucet is not subject to the same restrictions of mixing shower valves and hence, might provide much greater gpm ? I hope you can clarify this for me so that I can figure out if the waterfall head would be effective from a gpm standpoint. I suppose I could take off my shower head and see how long that takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket and that might give me a clue as to whether the gpm would be sufficient.
Thanks much.
Thanks much.
You would probably get a more accurate read by timing a bathtub inside the house. It will be way less, I'm sure.
You’re right about the hose bib because there is no valve that limits water flow like a shower valve. You can get a grohe thermostatic valve(or similar) that can put out about 11GPM and that would really help. You could kick it old school and just plumb ball valves in line and just run that up to your outlet. It would look bad but.....it would be full flow.
RenewDave and Havasu: I'm glad that your gpm explanations prompted me to test out the water volume on an outside hose as well as the indoor flow; both are probably sufficient; the outside volume is probably more than I need.
Maybe the pool waterfall suggestion may give me some clues. I just fully opened the shower downspout and placed a flexible cutting board under it and manipulated the board at various angles both convexly and conversely, and it seems to produce enough volume and waterflow angle in crude form, so that may be worth pursuing. I'll keep experimenting.
Thanks.
Maybe the pool waterfall suggestion may give me some clues. I just fully opened the shower downspout and placed a flexible cutting board under it and manipulated the board at various angles both convexly and conversely, and it seems to produce enough volume and waterflow angle in crude form, so that may be worth pursuing. I'll keep experimenting.
Thanks.
I removed a shower head and stood under the stream, running the open pipe at full blast; quite a letdown. Now I understand what RenewDave is talking about and also understand why all the pool waterfall spillways that are sold require 1-1/4" or larger inlet pipe and pumps. As RenewDave explained, it is a math/gpm issue.
Does anyone know who/if anyone retails a mixing valve that is less restrictive ? If not, then as RenewDave suggests, I guess the alternative is old school, which I assume requires two valves, one each for hot and cold with the two pipes connected to the single outlet. I guess that is not overly inconvenient, but it would be better to have a standard mix valve with one handle.
Any thoughts ? Can a basic mixing valve be modified ?
Does anyone know who/if anyone retails a mixing valve that is less restrictive ? If not, then as RenewDave suggests, I guess the alternative is old school, which I assume requires two valves, one each for hot and cold with the two pipes connected to the single outlet. I guess that is not overly inconvenient, but it would be better to have a standard mix valve with one handle.
Any thoughts ? Can a basic mixing valve be modified ?
https://cdn.cloud.grohe.com/tpi/1000/1400/1480/1485/1485005/original/1485005.pdf
This grohe valve is capable of 16GPM with3/4 plumbing. 9 GPM with 1/2 plumbing. There are others, Grohe is a high end product. You would need separate volume control(s) in conjunction with this type of valve.
This grohe valve is capable of 16GPM with3/4 plumbing. 9 GPM with 1/2 plumbing. There are others, Grohe is a high end product. You would need separate volume control(s) in conjunction with this type of valve.
RenewDave thanks for the Grohe material. We do have a high end plumbing specialist in town that carries Grohe products, so I will check with them; I see that this is an anti-scald unit, and that seems important, given the water flow potential with this unit and the scalding possibilities with such a volume of water pouring on your head (hadn't thought of that previously but now it just became a big deal). I expect that I will have sticker shock but surely it's worth checking out.
