Washing Machine Drainage Issue

[SoapySoutar]

Have a frustrating situation with a common issue: washing machine drain pipe is overflowing at the wall. Older house with narrower pipes, but have run this same machine successfully for the most part for five years. It would occasionally back up when using different cycles but now it won't run without overflowing. Using laundry taps from machine at full force the pipe drains fine. Garden hose at higher pressure will overflow it, though.

Pipe is behind wall and no laundry sink in room. Have put 50 foot auger through drain at clean out just below drainage pipe. Seemed to go through easily without resistance. Have tried a bladder attachment on hose to no luck and used a bit of chemical drain cleaner but don't want to pour too much down old pipes. Checked vents on roof with telescopic camera and light, no apparent obstruction.

Plan on selling home in next few years so have no desire to re-pipe or do anything drastic. Just can't find any obstructions yet can't solve this problem.

 

[Twowaxhack]

is your home on public sewer or does it have a septic system ?

 

[SoapySoutar]

is your home on public sewer or does it have a septic system ?

It's on a public sewer line.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It's on a public sewer line.

Call a pro drain cleaner.

 

[pasadena_commut]

Pipe is behind wall and no laundry sink in room. Have put 50 foot auger through drain at clean out just below drainage pipe. Seemed to go through easily without resistance. Have tried a bladder attachment on hose to no luck and used a bit of chemical drain cleaner but don't want to pour too much down old pipes. Checked vents on roof with telescopic camera and light, no apparent obstruction.

Just to be clear, there is a drain pipe coming out of the wall, and the rubber drain hose from the washer goes into it? Did you put the bladder down the drain pipe or into the clean out? Did a camera ever go down the drain pipe?

I would expect there would be a trap in a pipe like that, and your auger going in through a clean out after that would be coming into the system below the trap. Traps that accept output from a washing machine tend to gunk up with fiber and hair. It might pass a fair amount of water but if too much goes in it backs up. Our machine drains into a sink. We got sick of having to clean out the trap and put a plastic hair catcher over the drain in the sink. Similar to, but not identical to, this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Danco-White-Plastic-Drain-Cover/4776229

If you pull the rubber hose out of this drain pipe and run a camera into it I bet you will find a ball of yuck stuck at the bottom of the trap. The trap may be too tight a curve for a toilet auger, but you might be able to fish out most of it with a clothes hanger opened up and a hook bent into the end. Blasting water in will most likely at first just come right back out in your face. So it would be wise to rinse the trap out pretty thoroughly with a little water at a time before trying any hydraulic cleaning from the mouth of the drain pipe. (Or the drain cleaner will end up back in your face, very dangerous.)

One other note, blasting into a drain pipe with a garden hose can cause it to to back up even if there is nothing wrong with it. The clean out for our kitchen sink, which is outside, takes a pretty sharp turn (I think 90 degrees) not too far in, maybe 16 or 18 inches? If a nozzle on a garden hose is blasted in there some of it bounces off the far side of the pipe at the turn, which then causes the water to back up and eventually blow back out the opening. Short bursts work, especially when aimed at the side of the pipe, just not a sustained high velocity stream. There is no problem with normal gravity flow. Since the pipes under the double sink were replaced a whole sink worth of water will empty in just a few seconds.

 

[SoapySoutar]

Just to be clear, there is a drain pipe coming out of the wall, and the rubber drain hose from the washer goes into it? Did you put the bladder down the drain pipe or into the clean out? Did a camera ever go down the drain pipe?

I would expect there would be a trap in a pipe like that, and your auger going in through a clean out after that would be coming into the system below the trap. Traps that accept output from a washing machine tend to gunk up with fiber and hair. It might pass a fair amount of water but if too much goes in it backs up. Our machine drains into a sink. We got sick of having to clean out the trap and put a plastic hair catcher over the drain in the sink. Similar to, but not identical to, this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Danco-White-Plastic-Drain-Cover/4776229

If you pull the rubber hose out of this drain pipe and run a camera into it I bet you will find a ball of yuck stuck at the bottom of the trap. The trap may be too tight a curve for a toilet auger, but you might be able to fish out most of it with a clothes hanger opened up and a hook bent into the end. Blasting water in will most likely at first just come right back out in your face. So it would be wise to rinse the trap out pretty thoroughly with a little water at a time before trying any hydraulic cleaning from the mouth of the drain pipe. (Or the drain cleaner will end up back in your face, very dangerous.)

One other note, blasting into a drain pipe with a garden hose can cause it to to back up even if there is nothing wrong with it. The clean out for our kitchen sink, which is outside, takes a pretty sharp turn (I think 90 degrees) not too far in, maybe 16 or 18 inches? If a nozzle on a garden hose is blasted in there some of it bounces off the far side of the pipe at the turn, which then causes the water to back up and eventually blow back out the opening. Short bursts work, especially when aimed at the side of the pipe, just not a sustained high velocity stream. There is no problem with normal gravity flow. Since the pipes under the double sink were replaced a whole sink worth of water will empty in just a few seconds.

Thanks for the information. Yes, the drain pipe comes out of the wall at the height of the washer and that's where the hose goes. I could only fit the bladder into the drain pipe (it wouldn't go into the clean out.) I did try to use the camera in the drain pipe and couldn't make out too much (the auger could not pass the trap so it went through the clean out as well .. which I thought was a better idea, assuming that there was a blockage of some sort down the line.)

It's possible that there is some obstruction in the trap, but when the washing machine drains it doesn't come back up immediately .. takes a while. I couldn't see anything obvious down there when I ran the camera but I'm not sure I got past the turn and into the trap. I can certainly try the clothes hanger idea.

What seems at issue in all of this is that the same machine has drained fine for five years. There has been the occasional overflow at the wall when a different cycle is used, but putting it back to "Normal" seems to do the trick after mopping up. On the one previous occasion when there was overflow, I seem to remember the drain being able to take the garden hose at full force once I remedied the problem (at that time I think some drain cleaner followed by hot water seemed to remedy things.) If the machine was brand new and presenting the overflow then I'd suspect it was the older pipes not handling the flow, but either something has changed in this machine or there is something going on in the system.

One other note. There is one toilet that looks to be on the same wall line as this machine. It has had trouble flushing but only on rare occasion. Seems to be a water drainage problem .. but the shower right next to it drains fine. I used to think this only happened after heavy rains, but it seems a very occasional and intermittent issue and then it resolves. All other toilets and drains seem to be functioning in the house.

 

[Rickyman]

Take out clean out plug and thread in a male adapter. Push in the spigot 45 into the male adapter pointing up, no need to glue it. Put a bucket underneath, run washing machine. If water comes out the clean out the blockage is in the drain line, if water still comes out the standpipe the blockage is before the clean out.

 

[SoapySoutar]

Take out clean out plug and thread in a male adapter. Push in the spigot 45 into the male adapter pointing up, no need to glue it. Put a bucket underneath, run washing machine. If water comes out the clean out the blockage is in the drain line, if water still comes out the standpipe the blockage is before the clean out.

Excellent .. thank you.

 

[SoapySoutar]

Had a professional evaluation and they could tell from the clean out that the pipes are old and have a lot of corroded gunk in them, probably specific to the laundry drain which has been going for 60 years.

This makes sense since nothing else has changed and have been using the same machine five years now. The combination of older, narrower pipes and all the build-up with new high-flow rate machine finally caught up and made it impossible to pass that much water through at once.

Pipes will need to be replaced eventually, but given that 1) they are behind the wall and 2) the plan is to sell the place in the next few years and 3) there are no other plumbing issues at present in the house, the next best short-term idea is to install a sink next to the washing machine and drain into that. The clean out below with a nipple attachment can be used as a drain for the sink. Already have the hot and cold faucets going to the machine so can tap into that to work the sink.

The joys of owning an old home.

 

[pasadena_commut]

A couple of points:

1. If you know the diameter of the pipes you can estimate the distance to the blockage by running water into the drain at a known rate (like 2 gpm) and timing how long it takes to back up. (It isn't perfect because some water will get by the blockage and the pipe size estimate doesn't take into account gunk on the insides which narrow it.) Note that the washing machine may back up sooner than expected for the rate for the same volume of water because it is being pumped in at a faster rate and somewhat counterintuitively the faster water can bounce off obstructions and that water moving the wrong way can really limit throughput.

2. When we used powdered detergent (don't recall the brand) it would combine with the hard water and make rock like deposits inside the pipe. These were removed a couple of times by the rooter companies, then we switched to liquid detergent and the problem went away. Note though that the build up was past the trap and was removed from the clean out.

3. When we were having tree root problems we had the rooter companies out a lot. Most of them provided doom and gloom scenarios like "your pipes are collapsing" or "those old ceramic pipes don't hold up". Got rid of the trees and no problems since (at least 10 years). That said, it would probably make sense to just have that line rootered. If it took years and years to reach its current state, and it is all just from accumulated crud from the laundry, then it should take just as long again (more or less) once it is clean.

4. We don't have information about how the drains on your house are configured. Is the laundry the last thing before the curb, the furthest thing from the curb, on its own line to the curb, or on a Y? In many houses if the washing machine is backing up so will be other things, like a toilet or a sink.

 

[SoapySoutar]

A couple of points:

1. If you know the diameter of the pipes you can estimate the distance to the blockage by running water into the drain at a known rate (like 2 gpm) and timing how long it takes to back up. (It isn't perfect because some water will get by the blockage and the pipe size estimate doesn't take into account gunk on the insides which narrow it.) Note that the washing machine may back up sooner than expected for the rate for the same volume of water because it is being pumped in at a faster rate and somewhat counterintuitively the faster water can bounce off obstructions and that water moving the wrong way can really limit throughput.

2. When we used powdered detergent (don't recall the brand) it would combine with the hard water and make rock like deposits inside the pipe. These were removed a couple of times by the rooter companies, then we switched to liquid detergent and the problem went away. Note though that the build up was past the trap and was removed from the clean out.

3. When we were having tree root problems we had the rooter companies out a lot. Most of them provided doom and gloom scenarios like "your pipes are collapsing" or "those old ceramic pipes don't hold up". Got rid of the trees and no problems since (at least 10 years). That said, it would probably make sense to just have that line rootered. If it took years and years to reach its current state, and it is all just from accumulated crud from the laundry, then it should take just as long again (more or less) once it is clean.

4. We don't have information about how the drains on your house are configured. Is the laundry the last thing before the curb, the furthest thing from the curb, on its own line to the curb, or on a Y? In many houses if the washing machine is backing up so will be other things, like a toilet or a sink.

The trouble with the drainage definitely seems to be associated with high output from washing machine. It's been handing it OK for several years but started acting up and now overflows with every use. I can run the taps that feed the machine fully open and the drain never overflows, but if I run a cycle through the machine, the water being pushed out overflows quickly at the drain.

The laundry room is on the side of the house and near the street. I had the sewer lateral line replaced about five years ago when they were redoing the street. There is a toilet on that same line and it has some trouble flushing completely every once in a while but I'm not convinced it is related to the washing machine drain problem. It certainly isn't backed up and all the sinks and other toilets, showers, etc drain fine. It's just this one pipe with the high pressure water from the washer.

I'm thinking increasingly that the best workaround would be to install a drainage sink to take the water blasting out from the machine and drain through the pipes at a slower rate. There is a clean out on the floor below and my hope would be to use that as a drain for the sink. And there are hot and cold taps available. Doesn't seem as "clean" as when the drain worked and there was no exposed water or splashing, but at least I wouldn't have to start tearing out walls and replacing old pipes.

 

[MicEd69]

What is the size of your washing machine standpipe? The current code for washing machine standpipes is 2" as newer washing machines discharge at rather high rates.
Since you stated your drain "would occasionally back up when using different cycles but now it won't run without overflowing", I'm guessing your standpipe is 1 1/2".
And as others have stated, I'm betting on a buildup of debris in the trap and pipe that is limiting flow through your drain. If your standpipe is 1 1/2", and as you "would occasionally back up when using different cycles", your best solution would be to install a laundry tub sink. However, I would not try to use the cleanout as a drain connection. I would use something like below. And actually, if you did this you could still use the standpipe as any backup in the drain would backup into the sink rather than overflowing the standpipe.

 

[SoapySoutar]

What is the size of your washing machine standpipe? The current code for washing machine standpipes is 2" as newer washing machines discharge at rather high rates.
Since you stated your drain "would occasionally back up when using different cycles but now it won't run without overflowing", I'm guessing your standpipe is 1 1/2".
And as others have stated, I'm betting on a buildup of debris in the trap and pipe that is limiting flow through your drain. If your standpipe is 1 1/2", and as you "would occasionally back up when using different cycles", your best solution would be to install a laundry tub sink. However, I would not try to use the cleanout as a drain connection. I would use something like below. And actually, if you did this you could still use the standpipe as any backup in the drain would backup into the sink rather than overflowing the standpipe.
View attachment 45130

Thank you.

The appeal of using the cleanout as a drain connection for the sink is because the drainpipe (standpipe) is behind the wall with only the opening exposed at an angle to receive the machine hose. Tapping into that line as a drain would require cutting into the wall which is something I want to avoid doing. The professional who came by seemed to suggest that using the cleanout was an option, if not an ideal one. (In which case there would be a trap below the sink as opposed to using the one in the wall below the standpipe.)

 

[Twowaxhack]

Have the drain cleaned by a professional drain cleaning company.

 

[MicEd69]

Thank you.

The appeal of using the cleanout as a drain connection for the sink is because the drainpipe (standpipe) is behind the wall with only the opening exposed at an angle to receive the machine hose. Tapping into that line as a drain would require cutting into the wall which is something I want to avoid doing. The professional who came by seemed to suggest that using the cleanout was an option, if not an ideal one. (In which case there would be a trap below the sink as opposed to using the one in the wall below the standpipe.)

Is the standpipe 1 1/2"? If it is, and if it would occasionally back up when using different cycles from day one, then having the drain "professionally cleaned" probably will not resolve the issue.

And using the cleanout as a sink drain will still require a vent to your existing plumbing vent, or an AAV if they are allowed in your jurisdiction. I'm just thinking cutting a smallish hole in the wall to tie into the existing standpipe would be MUCH simpler.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It’s worked pretty much for the last 5 years with occasional backups.

I see and correct this routinely and have success by using a 50’ 3/8” innercore drain cable. It usually takes 30 min to an hour and it costs $150-250. In California it might cost $3-400

I get about 1 or 2 out of 100 that I can’t correct.

 

[MicEd69]

It’s worked pretty much for the last 5 years with occasional backups.

I see and correct this routinely and have success by using a 50’ 3/8” innercore drain cable. It usually takes 30 min to an hour and it costs $150-250. In California it might cost $3-400

I get about 1 or 2 out of 100 that I can’t correct.

Is the standpipe 1 1/2"? If it is, and if it would occasionally back up when using different cycles from day one, then having the drain "professionally cleaned" probably will not resolve the issue.
The best they can hope for would be having to live with the "occasional back up" during certain cycles.
This all hinges on the size of the standpipe. If it is 2", then a good cleaning of the drain will probably make it golden. If it is 1 1/2", then all that does is bring them back to the "occasional back up" during certain cycles.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The standpipe size really doesn’t matter, it’s the trap size and the downstream pipe size that matters.

The protocol is to attempt to clean the drain before installing a holding pond.

 

[MicEd69]

The standpipe size really doesn’t matter, it’s the trap size and the downstream pipe size that matters.

The protocol is to attempt to clean the drain before installing a holding pond.

Since the standpipe cannot be larger than the drain line, my comments obviously apply to the P-trap and drain line size. DUH!
So, if the standpipe and P-trap and drain line are 1 1/2", and since the standpipe has overflowed from day one on certain cycles, and since the drain line will not take a garden hose at full flow, spending $300 to $400 professionally cleaning the drain seems a waste of money.
But if the standpipe and P-trap and drain line are 2", then your approach would be warranted.
As I said above, "This all hinges on the size of the standpipe. If it is 2", then a good cleaning of the drain will probably make it golden. If it is 1 1/2", then all that does is bring them back to the "occasional back up" during certain cycles."

 

[Twowaxhack]

Since the standpipe cannot be larger than the drain line, my comments obviously apply to the P-trap and drain line size. DUH!
So, if the standpipe and P-trap and drain line are 1 1/2", and since the standpipe has overflowed from day one on certain cycles, and since the drain line will not take a garden hose at full flow, spending $300 to $400 professionally cleaning the drain seems a waste of money.
But if the standpipe and P-trap and drain line are 2", then your approach would be warranted.
As I said above, "This all hinges on the size of the standpipe. If it is 2", then a good cleaning of the drain will probably make it golden. If it is 1 1/2", then all that does is bring them back to the "occasional back up" during certain cycles."

The standpipe could be 1.5” with a 2” ptrap.

The standpipe being 1.5” wouldn’t matter.

I clean drains weekly that will not take a whole washer load of water but do when I’m finished cleaning the drain.
Thousands over my career but you seem to think it’s useless

I think that’s hilarious.

It could be a cast iron trap that’s closed up with rust from holding water for years. I clean them or replace the trap. That’s how it’s done.