Sediment Issue

[PerplexedPlumber]

The image of the debris looks similar to what happens when silicon treatment is used for cooling water. The silicates that form are insoluble and very difficult to deal with. Silicates can also be present in well water in some parts of the country, which leaves near-permanent mineral deposits in toilets and dishwashers. This does not mean that silicates are present in your water because an image is not diagnostic. If you can find a reliable (key factor) water quality testing lab, you may want to have a sample tested, collected from a hydrant outside of your house plumbing if possible. You can compare your results to the annual report submitted to EPA (public record) to see if there could be an issue specific to your area, such as build-up in the lines over the years. Be sure that the lab can provide results for silicon as well as carbonates, magnesium and calcium, and total dissolved solids. Mineral precipitation can build up over a long time, and as 2Wax said, higher temperatures will precipitate more dissolved mineral deposits. If sediment has developed in the main lines and occasional disturbance, such as flushing hydrants, stirs it up and distributes it further downstream, you may not be able to catch a sample that would reveal this issue. In any case, this will need to be evaluated and resolved by the water utility. Perhaps getting documentation from multiple neighbors with images would be a better way to get a response than being a single complainer.

If there is sediment in the main lines, and a compromise should occur introducing bacteria to those lines, it would be very difficult for the utility to resolve a potential health risk since the sediment would allow bacteria to escape treatment.

 

[shellbmb]

Quick update to my issue. No resolution and it's only getting worse. But now I have another issue that wasn't there before the hot water heater swap.

My initial setup was two tanked hot water heaters with a recirc pump. Almost instant hot water. We changed the heaters thinking that it would fix our sediment issue. It certainly did not. But now our instant hot water is gone. Ever since they installed the tankless Navian heater, it now takes a while to get hot sometimes upwards of 5 minutes in a lower flow faucet or showerhead and the flow is much less than what it was with the tanked heaters. They have been out and troubleshooted and seem to think it's the return line coming back to the hot water heater. They did some flow tests on the recirc pump inside the unit and said it's just not getting flow back to it.

So they decided to try and "blow" out the line and boy did that screw up things. I attached a picture of just some of the stuff that came out. That is a 12 oz cup and I'm guess it was almost a 1/3rd full of that crap. But by blowing it back towards the bathroom, it really clogged up the filters and fixtures in that bath.

This is starting to become a nightmare.

Is this normal sediment? It's very grainy, doesn't seem to dissolve or "bubble" when put in vinegar and desiccates if you let it dry.

I'm really at a loss as to what to do both short term and long term and I feel the plumbers are too. I'm sure they regret taking this job, but everything they have done has made my situation worse and is now introducing new problems. They are very nice and are trying, but I need help.

I just don't understand how that much stuff can precipitate in PEX tubing only on the hot side of my water. They said putting a water softener would not help in the long term and I really don't have a good location to put a filter.

I've also attached what my washing machine inlet and dishwasher inlets look like. Completely clogged only on the hot side.

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Twowaxhack]

have you contacted the water provider ?

You’re either going to have to treat your water on the cold side or have your water company correct their treatment.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Do you have neighbors ? Go talk to them …..

Do not heat your water above 125. I usually say 140 but your water is pure crap.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

Heat can cause precipitation of minerals in water, just like what happens when you boil water on the stove. It isn't bubbling because it is not a carbonate type of sediment, so you may not be in an area where limestone is part of your geological material, where groundwater becomes saturated with this mineral. Water with minerals from limestone are treatable with water softeners. When the mineralization occurs from silicates, you will need a good water treatment resource. The City of Austin should be able to provide information on water quality analysis, as there is at least one public annual report required by EPA.

Blowing out the lines probably stirred up 12 years of accumulation; this is probably not a new issue. I have to wonder whether there is also accumulation in the main lines that is stirred up for example when the fire hydrants are opened for use or for maintenance. If the sediment is coming in from the main lines, you may benefit from a coarse filter. If it is precipitating in your hot water tank/s, you have a different issue. In either case, your neighbors should be experiencing similar problems and may have found solutions.

Hopefully when your lines were "blown out", they were blown out in the opposite direction of normal flow, and all fixtures were included.

 

[shellbmb]

have you contacted the water provider ?

You’re either going to have to treat your water on the cold side or have your water company correct their treatment.

City of Austin? They are useless.

Do you have neighbors ? Go talk to them …..

Do not heat your water above 125. I usually say 140 but your water is pure crap.

Yes, neighbors deal with it to varying degrees. I'm probably the worst case and have tried the most to deal with it. My neighbors have showers that are unusable as well.

Heat can cause precipitation of minerals in water, just like what happens when you boil water on the stove. It isn't bubbling because it is not a carbonate type of sediment, so you may not be in an area where limestone is part of your geological material, where groundwater becomes saturated with this mineral. Water with minerals from limestone are treatable with water softeners. When the mineralization occurs from silicates, you will need a good water treatment resource. The City of Austin should be able to provide information on water quality analysis, as there is at least one public annual report required by EPA.

Blowing out the lines probably stirred up 12 years of accumulation; this is probably not a new issue. I have to wonder whether there is also accumulation in the main lines that is stirred up for example when the fire hydrants are opened for use or for maintenance. If the sediment is coming in from the main lines, you may benefit from a coarse filter. If it is precipitating in your hot water tank/s, you have a different issue. In either case, your neighbors should be experiencing similar problems and may have found solutions.

Hopefully when your lines were "blown out", they were blown out in the opposite direction of normal flow, and all fixtures were included.

If I dig 6" into the ground, I hit limestone so there is plenty around.

I have easy access to place a softener on the cold line going into my hot water heater, but not on the whole house line. They did not leave me a "loop" to easily install one. I'm fine to put one in if it will help. Plumber didn't seem to think it would help and has repeatedly mentioned this Flow-Tech device which sounds very hokey to me.

I wasn't here, but I believe they blew from the return line at the hot water heater back towards the furthest bathroom which is the master. I'm assuming that's why all the fixtures are clogged. I removed the Moen cartridge from my hot side sink, and tons of sediment came out. Trying to do the same with my tub, but it's proving more difficult.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Ok then, treat your cold water and keep the temp down under 130.

Consider removing the circulator pump all together.

This wasn’t a difficult problem at all.

Case closed.

 

[shellbmb]

Ok then, treat your cold water and keep the temp down under 130.

Consider removing the circulator pump all together.

This wasn’t a difficult problem at all.

Case closed.

Recommend any particular type of softener or treatment?

Without the recirc pump, wait time for hot water can be significant. What's an acceptable time to wait for hot water?

And will a tanked system deliver hot water faster than a tankless?

Appreciate all the advice.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Recommend any particular type of softener or treatment?

Without the recirc pump, wait time for hot water can be significant. What's an acceptable time to wait for hot water?

And will a tanked system deliver hot water faster than a tankless?

Appreciate all the advice.

I don’t do water treatment.

30 seconds I believe or less but there are codes that address it.

No, a tank system wouldn’t get the water there any quicker.

Try an on demand circulation system. This way you’d be heating the water less, not circulating it all the time.

Add a hot water heater closer to the bathrooms. No circulation.

If you do circulate keep the temp down to a minimum.

Circulate slower…..so use the slowest pump speed.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I suggest cleaning the tankless right now.

Tankless are more sensitive to water quality. I suggest you treat the water starting immediately.

 

[Aggie83]

is it like sand particle size? I ruined a tankless heater with that. Got a spin filter to remove the sand and things are fine. Probably the Austin water system. https://images.thdstatic.com/produc...g-whole-house-water-filters-wsp-50-64_100.jpg

 

[shellbmb]

I suggest cleaning the tankless right now.

Tankless are more sensitive to water quality. I suggest you treat the water starting immediately.

At this point I think I'm done with the tankless. Shouldn't take 5 minutes to get hot water. I have another plumber coming out today to troubleshoot, but we've had nothing but problems since they installed that. Every single thing the plumber has done has made my situation worse. They left last week with three fixtures not even working. Zero hot water coming out. I had to go buy Moen tools to remove the cartridges to free up two of them, but can't get the tub un-clogged.

is it like sand particle size? I ruined a tankless heater with that. Got a spin filter to remove the sand and things are fine. Probably the Austin water system. https://images.thdstatic.com/produc...g-whole-house-water-filters-wsp-50-64_100.jpg

No, it's more like granola or oatmeal type sediment. I'd love to do a chemical analysis of it, but have no idea who would even do something like that.

 

[Twowaxhack]

With water sediment issues a tankless is a poor choice.

The hotter you heat water and the faster you circulate it the more minerals fall out…….

So the answer is to treat the water.

Turn the temp down

Don’t circulate or slow the circulation to a minimum.

Valves can be blown out with high pressure nitrogen.

You just haven’t found the right plumber. We are not all the same.

 

[shellbmb]

Digging up a slightly old thread.

So I've started treating my water with a salt based softener for the past 6 weeks so hopefully starting down the right track. Turned the temp down and will circulate to the minimum.

But I still have some faucets/fixtures that almost zero hot water pressure. And it's weird since others have full pressure. This is only on the hot side. Cold side has never been an issue and has full pressure. We've pulled the fixture and even pulled the inlet compression valve off the copper stub and it's clean. So there are still blockages within the piping somewhere.

Before I start ripping up drywall, would it be helpful, or even feasible, to somehow run a dissolving solution like white vinegar throughout my hot water piping? Not sure how I would even do this, but I do have a sump pump and the tankless has a cold water service port to attach it to. The recirculation line/loop is right there too.

Remember, I'm a plumbing idiot so go easy if this is a dumb idea.

 

[RS]

I think most on demand tankless heaters have flushing ports on the inlet and outlet, you should be able to put a hose on the port on the outlet side and run it into a bucket and see how the flow is. If you have low flow there then the blockage is probably in the heater. You should be able to flush the heater using you sump pump and a bucket, with the appropriate solution.