How does it work?

[scrantch]

I have recently moved from
an area where I had a well with a steel casing, 220' deep, with a 3/4 hp multi staged submersible pump about 20' off the bottom, connected to a pressure tank via a pit less adapter below frost and this pressure fed the home.
Now I have a well with a pvc casing with a square Franklin, pressure switch device, going to the home to a standard filter through a RO filter to a calcite 1cu ft tank with no timing valve to another square Franklin pressure device? to a 350 gallon plastic tank with an aerator and float switch, with another submersible pump to pressurize the home.
Is it normal not to have a pressure tank somewhere in this secondary side of the system so the pump in the tank does not start every time a faucet is opened?
Also the RO filter seems to backwash? randomly or does it function this way wasting water every time the float switch calls for water to fill the holding tank?
I am very confused why a new home was set up this way and do not like the constant change in water pressure to the fixtures.
It seems that it would have been less costly to use one pump in the well casing, use the holding tank as a pressure tank and use timed or metered valves on the backwash filters while aerating the water inline before the tank.
Is it the RO that I am not understanding that prevents it being set up, what I would call normal?

 

[Valveman]

Pictures please. There is no telling what you have. Normally you would want the well pump to go directly to the aerator tank using a float switch to turn it on or off, no pressure tank/pressure switch. Then the booster pump in the aerator tank would go to a pressure tank and pressure switch to supply the house. There are devices that claim to work without a pressure tank, but they do not work very well. You need a pressure tank for the booster pump. However, you do not need a very large pressure tank if the pump is controlled with a Cycle Stop Valve or CSV. The CSV allows the use of as little as a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank and will deliver strong constant pressure to the house.

 

[scrantch]

Pictures please. There is no telling what you have. Normally you would want the well pump to go directly to the aerator tank using a float switch to turn it on or off, no pressure tank/pressure switch. Then the booster pump in the aerator tank would go to a pressure tank and pressure switch to supply the house. There are devices that claim to work without a pressure tank, but they do not work very well. You need a pressure tank for the booster pump. However, you do not need a very large pressure tank if the pump is controlled with a Cycle Stop Valve or CSV. The CSV allows the use of as little as a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank and will deliver strong constant pressure to the house.

View attachment 40604

Thanks for responding and it’s funny that while only two months at the new home I am having low pressure at all fixtures and was getting used to the pump turning on as soon as the faucet was opened, splashing out of the bathroom sinks. Now from a trickle to a slow flow. Pump in tank sounds normal, on and off pretty quickly. Can’t last long without a pressure tank I would imagine. I tried bypassing the calcite tank with no change in flow. The pressure on setting on the Franklin control has not been changed on either control. It seems to flow from the holding tank through the calcite tank straight to the house. Possibly the control feeding the pump in the tank is bad? They are about 160$ online. The gauges on both are always condensed and illegible though the one on the well casing is always sitting much higher than the one on the tank.

 

[Valveman]

I see your problems. Two of them. Lol! Those "In Line" pump controllers with the pressure gauges on the side will need to be replaced. Yes, they claim to work without a tank. But as you have seen they do not. They are really made to make sure you have to replace those pumps very often. Every pump manufacturer has a version of that so called "tankless" pump controller that uses a flow switch as control. They hope the pump barely makes it past the warranty date. You should also have very high pressure, or a pressure reducing valve somewhere I cannot see. Those controllers have no control over the pressure and a 3/4HP, 10 GPM pump can build as much as 160 PSI. I can't believe people get away with selling those things.

I presume you also have an electric valve filling the cistern from the well pump? If so, you will need a Cycle Stop Valve or more precisely a PK1A kit for both pumps as in the following drawing. You won't find any pump manufacturers selling Cycle Stop Valves as they consider it a disruptive product as it can make pumps last many, many times longer than they like. Oh and BTW. the CSV will deliver extra strong constant pressure to the house, and only needs a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank.

 

[scrantch]

Thanks, no wonder the builder and the well driller who set up the system are ignoring me. I always thought the RO should have more pressure to it also because it seems to trickle out constantly when refilling the tank. what do they do, use 10 gallons for every gallon that's cleaned?
I'm new to this area and houses are going up all over the place and there are literally hundreds of water treatment guys, well drillers etc. so it would be like throwing a dart to find someone who you could trust. This is Naples Fl. and a very expensive house for what it is.
Should have stayed up north on the mountain with spring water. Humans shouldn't be living in the middle of the Everglades

 

[Valveman]

I would Lol but it isn't funny. It is almost impossible to get a qualified technician to install of fix anything these days. No college degree needed, just good old honest want to and hard work is all that is needed. But probably not going to see that anytime soon.

I should have posted pictures myself.

Basically replace these.....


With these...



And you will be switching from something made to sell to something made to last.

 

[scrantch]

Thanks, I guess I'll have to try it. I have some skill but will probably have to draw a map of each piece I will need. Would you think the weight of the tank and T kit is about double the weight of the tankless control? And the RO filter can function at a normal 40 to 60lbs?

 

[scrantch]

I see the Pside kick kit is 500$ Could it be put on the home side only and leave the flow control on the well which basically just does the irrigation and fills the cistern? Those two functions are full blown on or off anyways?

 

[wpns]

Is your well water that bad that you need RO?

 

[scrantch]

Have no idea but after two months of use the sediment filter is clean looking but the home was sold to me complete. It's on about 3 acres but who knows with raised septic systems all around and the well being about 40', I'm told. One thing I do know is the whole yard smells of sulfur when the irrigation runs which is aerated in the cistern tank, and the water tastes perfect in the home. A white bathtub fills clean.
I see Tamarac is 1.5 hrs from me pretty much directly East. I am off 29 Near Ava Maria. Soon it will be "megatropolis" from me to you!!!

 

[wpns]

Fortunately the swamp is now protected so that’s unlikely, but growth is crazy in this area lately.

I’d get the raw well water tested and see what your actual issues are before assuming that solution is the best one. RO is energy intensive and wasteful of water (as you’ve discovered) and disposal of rejected water is going to be an issue eventually. Also, while it’s (arguably), working well now, in that it’s delivering good quality water, maintenance is going to be a potential issue in the long run.

I’m a big fan of Triple-O ozone systems for cisterns, and Valveman has the varying pressure thing figured out, you’ve come to the right place anyway.

Post more pictures of each step in the water process, I’m not sure I grok it all.

 

[scrantch]

Yes a service guy who stopped in when I first bought wanted to install a high pressure pump to ensure the RO filter will clean itself properly. It reminds me of the swarm of roofers who come after hurricanes from all over the country taking cash from the elderly to fix tiles in the dark!!!!

 

[wpns]

Well, RO needs a high pressure to operate, which is why it's so energy inefficient, but I'm not convinced you _need_ it (and then the remineralization step). Sometimes the water treatment guys just throw the most expensive solution at every problem.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Yes a service guy who stopped in when I first bought wanted to install a high pressure pump to ensure the RO filter will clean itself properly. It reminds me of the swarm of roofers who come after hurricanes from all over the country taking cash from the elderly to fix tiles in the dark!!!!

Is city water an option ?

 

[scrantch]

Is city water an option ?

No unfortunately, but the development is so rapid, that it is been talked about. There are people from all over flocking down here ever since 2000. and we thought it was out of control since I first bought in the area in the 80s. But closer to the shore where we were is all city water and sewer since the late 70s. I remember them just crushing the septic tank into the ground when they switched to water and sewer on Marco.
I think Collier county is approaching 500k residents, most of the new ones on well and septic.

 

[Valveman]

I see the Pside kick kit is 500$ Could it be put on the home side only and leave the flow control on the well which basically just does the irrigation and fills the cistern? Those two functions are full blown on or off anyways?

Those pump controllers are really cheap/easy and hard on the pumps. The installers like the cheap and easy to install part as they don't have to purchase, make room, and install a pressure tank/pressure switch. The manufactures like the "hard on pumps" part.

As you said, there is no pressure tank. So, when you develop a small leak, they will rapid fire on and off until they stoke out. But, except for the lack of pressure control they will work ok until that happens. Replacing the pump will be much more expensive than adding a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[scrantch]

Those pump controllers are really cheap/easy and hard on the pumps. The installers like the cheap and easy to install part as they don't have to purchase, make room, and install a pressure tank/pressure switch. The manufactures like the "hard on pumps" part.

As you said, there is no pressure tank. So, when you develop a small leak, they will rapid fire on and off until they stoke out. But, except for the lack of pressure control they will work ok until that happens. Replacing the pump will be much more expensive than adding a Cycle Stop Valve.

So I need two kick kits. One for the well and one for the cistern. If I just do the cistern pump first, I can use it that way until the well control or well pump fails or until I buy the second kit?

 

[scrantch]

Why don't they just skip the cistern, use a regular 32g+- pressure tank, a 1/2 hp franklin well pump or whatever is in the well now, and aerate the sulfur inline on the way to the filters, then straight to the house? Or does the RO system expell water any time water is flowing through it?

 

[wpns]

Not sure you need the first one if you are just filling a cistern, we need more pictures.

 

[scrantch]

Not sure you need the first one if you are just filling a cistern, we need more pictures.

There's not anything else to see. The feed from the well goes to the T where it feeds the irrigation and sediment filter, out of that to the RO unit, into the cistern tank and out to the calcite tank and into the home.
The installer told me to unplug the whole system, as not to ruin the pumps, that was yesterday morning. Kind of aggravating but I'm used to most people under 65 not giving a crap about anything!!