Float lever sticking & power to jet pump problem

[Zanne]

I'm not sure what you mean by "breaking the hot wire".

There is a leak I can't seem to stop in there so I wonder if the wires got splashed a little or something. Or if the moisture in there has damaged the wires. Will have to shut off the breakers and go look before it gets worse.

I'm asking my certified electrician friend to come out and look at it tomorrow if he gets a chance. Would dielectric grease help? I've seen some clear gel like stuff that gets put on wires that helps to reduce corrosion.

 

[RS]

If it's a 120-volt pump, you should have a black and a white wire, and then a bare ground wire, so I only connect the black wire to the switch, the 2 white wires can just be connected together. The ground should be connected to the metal frame of the switch, along with the ground wire to the pump motor. If it's a 240-volt motor, there should be a black, another color other than white, and a ground. It's pretty common to put some colored electrical tape around the white wire to indicate it's a hot wire also. If it's a 240-volt motor both hot wires should go through the switch.

 

[Zanne]

I think it's 240 but I don't remember for certain. It went out out 2 more times-- total of 5 times and this time its out for the count. A coupling on the outlet side came loose and sprayed water directly on to the switch (even though it has a cover). It was too dark for me to see much.

This was on the 4th time it went out. I was able to get it working again but not the 5th. It was toast. Going to have to find some cold weather PVC cement and some more fittings & pipe.
View attachment PumpSwitch Problem crop.mp4
I hope the pump itself is ok.

 

[Valveman]

Clicking on and off rapidly like that will trip the overload in the motor. Give it a few minutes and the overload should cool down, reset, and let the motor run again. Sounds like your pressure tank may be completely waterlogged. Probably a loose connection at the switch as well, but when it does make it clicks rapidly like the pressure tank has no air.

 

[RS]

You need to get some air in that tank before you try using it again, or your problems will just get worse! Even if the bladder is ruptured, adding air will correct the problem for a while.

 

[Zanne]

Hmm.. So, how do I add air to the tank?
I'll have to look in to getting a new one. I have this one:


22 gallons but there aren't any 22 gallon ones available for sale in my area. Hoping 20 gallon would be OK. And will have to see what sort of connectors are available.

Thinking of getting this one since its in stock.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/A-O-Smith-20-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000565619
but first I'm going to get my tire inflator and see if I can inflate the old pressure tank to 28psi

 

[Valveman]

Not much difference in a 20 and a 22 gallon tank. They both hold about 5 gallons of water, which at least twice that size tank is recommended for a 10 GPM pump. The FL7 means 7 gallons of water, but that is at 30/50 with perfect conditions.. Don't care much for the AO Smith style tank. But no tank diaphragm or bladder can survive the pump cycling on and off all the time. Like was said, just air up the tank and you can get by for a few days or weeks. Then you will have time to research and solve the cycling problem instead of just buying the first tank you can find. Even though a larger tank should be used, just the price of that small one along with a new tank cross and all the accessories you will be at 500 bucks. You can get a PK1A for about the same price, which will solve the cycling problem and deliver stronger pressure to the house.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/pk1a-pside-kick

 

[Zanne]

So, after I aired up the tank it lost all of its air when the water blew back where the coupling came off. Wonder if a backflow preventer would help there.

Anyway, I went and grabbed a tank thinking that would be it. Also got the switch and dielectric grease. Picked up my friend and brought him out to see things. He said the wires were loose on the switch. But he changed out the switch just in case, used dielectric grease and a rubber gasket to reduce the vibrations between the pump and the switch. I got the cable secured better. Friend reconnected the coupling with primer and rain or shine pvc cement while I brought food to Mom. Then I put 28psi of air in the pressure tank. Friend said we'd never done that before and I said I never knew we needed to but apparently we did. Waited for cement to cure a bit and then turned power back on & water is working for now. I will have to keep checking the tank. I will probably store the new tank in a storage shed just in case. Got a bunch of fittings that ended up not being used but may be used if we hook up the new tank.

I'm really glad I got the bprom (or something like that) jumpstarter/tire inflator. You pick what psi you want it to go to and it fills to that level. I did lose the cap that goes over the thingamabob on the pressure tank though. It fell somewhere and I couldn't find where it went. I can probably use one of the caps they use on tires anyway if I don't find it.

 

[Valveman]

The only check valve needed is the one down on the pump itself. The air comes out of the tank because the bladder/diaphragm is torn. Closing the faucets should let you air up the entire system to 28 PSI, not just the pressure tank. But that will help. With a torn diaphragm the air will quickly go away and the pump will start turning off and off as fast as you can say click, click, click. You are going to need a new tank. Remembering that cycling on and off is what caused all those problems. Adding a CSV1A to the inlet side of the tank will solve the problems and be easy to do while swapping out the tank. You didn't need that large a tank with a CSV, but it won't hurt.

 

[Zanne]

Thanks. I'll have to find time and get all the fittings to install the new pressure tank then. I'm planning to replace some of the 1" PVC with 1" PEX to add a little flexibility to the setup. I still need to raise the pump a little higher as the pipe for the inlet is higher than the pump currently. When I adjust the outlet side it will let me lift the pump a bit (I can pivot the stainless steel pipe that goes in to the pump on the inlet side) a bit to raise it. Might stick some sort of antivibration mat underneath while I'm at it.

Not yet ready to do the CSV thing just yet. I'm saving up to get my teeth fixed.

Is the pressure gauge on the tee coming out of the pressure tank necessary? The pressure switch and pressure gauge on mine are currently on the pump itself. I wonder if I could get away with keeping the regular PVC tee coming out of the pressure tank (which is what I currently have). The metal tee with ports on it is a nice idea, but I'd pretty much plug everything- except to have a pressure relief thingamabob.

Will the CSV1A work with a 20 gallon pressure tank?

I wonder if I can put it closer to the pump-- changing out the pump's galvanized steel to stainless steel. I'm seeing some of the setup pics on the website show some sort of flexible tubing. 'So it looks like I could possibly use 1" PEX and then transition to PVC fittings.

 

[Valveman]

Be glad to help anyway I can. The CSV125 is much less expensive and works just as well with fairly clean water. The gauge is just to make sure of the settings. But when using a CSV the pressure switch and gauge must sense after the CSV, not on the side of the pump like jet pumps come with. You can extend the black tube from the switch to somewhere after the CSV and the existing switch will work. Or you can plumb a new switch after the CSV and wire around the existing switch. And yes, the CSV1A and the CSV125-1 will both work with 20 gallon size or any size pressure tank.

 

[Zanne]

My water isn't fairly clean, sadly. It is filthy with sediment. We boil it and use filtering pitchers inside. Adding a water filtration system would be a royal pain.

My guts don't like me today so I'll review the information more when I'm feeling better. Time for more pepto.

 

[Zanne]

Very rough sketch of the current setup. There are multiple shutoffs before and after the current tank. Blue line is PEX and goes to PVC with a shutoff and to outside lines. The other side goes to PVC that goes to another shutoff and out to the house.

My proposed changes (not to scale). The tee has 1"male npt inlet and outlets but also have 3/4" female npt so they are threaded on inside and outside. 1/4" ports on the top and 1/2" on the front. The pressure tank specs said it needed a pressure relief valve and needed the switch as close to it as possible. So, I'm going to move the switch over to the tee, add a pressure relief valve and a pressure gauge (the gauge coming off the pump does not work anymore). Little 4" long 1/4" pipe to hold the switch (I know they are usually 3" but the 4" was cheaper). A plug instead of a spigot. I couldn't seem to find a decent boiler drain. I found gauges with stainless steel instead of brass. The iron in my water doesn't play well with brass.

Do you think 75psi is high enough for the pressure relief valve? Or do I need higher with a 30/50 switch? There's also a 100psi pressure relief valve available in the stainless steel. I suppose worst case scenario, I could go with a brass one to get the right psi and I could use dielectric grease.

I will still have to figure out how to tie in the pipes. I wonder if I can use 1" pex before the tank to give a little more leeway. If not, I can probably use it after.

I also want to lift the tank (and the pump) up a little bit so there is more clearance from the ground. I have paving stones and cinderblocks lying around.

 

[Valveman]

I think even the 75 PSI relief valve is too high. Skimming back to 2013, looks like you a J10S pump. That pump has a max pressure of about 70 PSI, so a 75 PSI pop off can't pop off. It can be adjusted down to work though. When the pump shuts off at 50 or 60, remove the cap on top of the prv, and loosen the adjustment until it starts leaking. Then tighten the adjustment until it stops leaking. That is as close as you can set a prv. The drawing looks good except it needs a CSV1A between the tank cross and where is says "pump".

 

[Zanne]

I'm going to set it up so I can add the csv in later. Not in the budget at the moment. max shutoff pressure is 74psi on the J10S. Using a 30/50 switch, I think 75 might not be too bad. My pressure tank can take more than that. The prv is only in case it somehow gets too high for the pressure tank to handle. Which I think has happened in the past due to not having any prv and the bladders ruptured. Or it could have just been from so much use for so long.

I will leave room for the csv for the future.

 

[Valveman]

If max shut off pressure of the J10S pump is 74 PSI, it can never get to 75 PSI to pop off the relief valve. Might as well have a plug in the line as a prv. The prv is not really to keep the pressure from bursting the tank or pipe. It takes over 300 PSI to burst most tanks. I have seen them tested at the factory. The tank bladders fail from going up and down over and over as the pump cycles on and off. Again, just one of many things the CSV will solve once you get it installed.

A prv is needed to pop off enough water to keep the pump cool if/when the pressure switch fails to shut the pump off at 50 as it should. With a 30/50 switch and a pump that has a max pressure of 74 PSI, the prv needs to pop off at about 60-65 PSI. Again, it can be adjusted as described above. If the switch fails to shut off the pump and it just spins at 74 PSI for a short while, things inside will start melting down.

 

[Zanne]

Ok, so I look for the pressure gauge to say 50psi while the pump is off and loosen the cap on the PRV until it leaks and then tighten it back up a little until leaking stops?
The system has run without a PRV for a very long time already, so I wonder if adding one would even do anything. A cap may be a good idea in that case. Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

A pump system could run for years and never need/use the pressure relief valve. But if you don't have a prv the day the pressure switch fails to shut off the pump, the pump will melt down. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have one.

 

[Zanne]

So, after the power outage for a few days the pump worked a bit and then last night went out. The arm on the switch for filling the cistern didn't move down when the float did (might need to adjust something on that) and the cistern wasn't full. Jet pump was not running. I got the cistern to fill but the jet pump is showing no signs of life. Hoping its wiring or the switch, but the pump may have burned out. It doesn't even try to turn on.

 

[speedbump]

Are the points on t he pressure switch for the pump closed? If they are use something that is insulated like a plastic spoon to flick the points open and closed. There could be something causing them to not make a connection to turn on the pump.