why is it this way?

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

If I wrote the code I would require a 36” pan for the standard 50 gallon heater with a 2” pvc drain piped to the exterior.

I’d require a light and a 120v outlet within 6’ of the heater.

48” walk way to and around the heater.

A large/strong pull down stair or standard framed staircase.

That's pretty much what we have in new construction around here. I don't know if those dimensions are exact but they are directionally all correct. The one obvious deficiency is the 36" pan, usually they are just big enough for the circumference plus a little, of a water heater. Not much more...and the drain is really small, like a 1" or ¾" PVC. Not sure they actually test them since I've seen failures in new construction--leaks in the pans.

All the reasons to put a water heater in the attic surely make sense but try telling that to someone who has to deal with a failure, and the crazy cost of insulation replacement, drywall repair, etc. If the leak and damage severe enough, then there's carpet or floor replacement, maybe furniture too. I can pretty much assure you that the homeowner won't be agreeing that a HWH should be in an attic.

In the last four homes I've owned, including this one, two were in garages, and two were in basements. Any kind of failure of a water heater in those locations? Big wup as they say. No problem. Open the garage door and sweep out the water or let it go to the basement floor drain. Easy to get a replacement in the garage or the basement--I've done it repeatedly, usually with just a small amount of help. I generally replace my water heaters at the first sign of impending doom...I'm not one of those guys who will come here when it's 35 years old looking for parts sources. Usually replaced at the 10 year mark.

 

[Twowaxhack]

That's pretty much what we have in new construction around here. I don't know if those dimensions are exact but they are directionally all correct. The one obvious deficiency is the 36" pan, usually they are just big enough for the circumference plus a little, of a water heater. Not much more...and the drain is really small, like a 1" or ¾" PVC. Not sure they actually test them since I've seen failures in new construction--leaks in the pans.

All the reasons to put a water heater in the attic surely make sense but try telling that to someone who has to deal with a failure, and the crazy cost of insulation replacement, drywall repair, etc. If the leak and damage severe enough, then there's carpet or floor replacement, maybe furniture too. I can pretty much assure you that the homeowner won't be agreeing that a HWH should be in an attic.

In the last four homes I've owned, including this one, two were in garages, and two were in basements. Any kind of failure of a water heater in those locations? Big wup as they say. No problem. Open the garage door and sweep out the water or let it go to the basement floor drain. Easy to get a replacement in the garage or the basement--I've done it repeatedly, usually with just a small amount of help. I generally replace my water heaters at the first sign of impending doom...I'm not one of those guys who will come here when it's 35 years old looking for parts sources. Usually replaced at the 10 year mark.

So you’re saying all water heaters should be installed in a garage or basement.

When I go into a basement I usually see a water line some where……you picking up what I’m putting down ?

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

So you’re saying all water heaters should be installed in a garage or basement.

No. But I am saying they should never be in an attic. The house should be built so it can accommodate all of the systems it needs. Remember, they used to build homes without bathrooms. You went to the outhouse, outback. There are far more homes in most of America without water heaters in the attic, than there are in the south with them in the attic. Most of America has figured this out. It’s just those in the southeast have not.

Even around here, I have seen plenty of homes where they have found a place to put them inside the conditioned building envelope, such as a corner of a laundry room in a closet, or underneath the stairs.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I’m telling you that there are thousands of water heaters in attics and I rarely see a flood from it. When I do see a flood from it, it’s typically from lack of maintenance. Pan drain stopped up with insulation a other debris and a 20 yr old heater.

Even if they do flood it’s just drywall that typically gets damaged along with the typical damage when they’re on the first floor. Big deal. Not all homes have garages or basements, that puts them in a closet in the living space.



I see more floods from heaters on the first floor that do not have a water heater pan.

I see more floods from blown out water supply lines from toilets and faucets.
Blown out washing machine hoses.
Cracked toilet tanks.

Cracked and defective solenoid valves are also a biggie.

There’s a movement toward tankless and a lot of those are placed on the side of the homes here in a warm climate.

 

[chinarus]

HVAC drains in the attic can be problematic as well.
I sold a house and the new owner
didn't want to leave the electricity on for a few months till they moved in.
Drain line developed mold and stopped up causing ceiling damage when they moved in
and turned on the HVAC unit in the attic.

Consider adding drain line maintenance to your checklist if you have systems in the attic.

 

[havasu]

I flush one gallon, mixed with 50/50 with white vinegar and hot water, in the springtime, as normal maintenance for my HVAC, which is mounted in the attic. Even when my HVAC was mounted in a utility closet on the first floor, the previous owners never flushed the condensate line, and I woke up one morning to 1/2" of water in 3 rooms. When I called my home warranty (provided free from the seller for one year) and told them to come out and fix their problem, they declined it saying it was from a lack or maintenance on my part.

 

[sawsaw]

I flush one gallon, mixed with 50/50 with white vinegar and hot water, in the springtime, as normal maintenance for my HVAC, which is mounted in the attic. Even when my HVAC was mounted in a utility closet on the first floor, the previous owners never flushed the condensate line, and I woke up one morning to 1/2" of water in 3 rooms. When I called my home warranty (provided free from the seller for one year) and told them to come out and fix their problem, they declined it saying it was from a lack or maintenance on my part.

A common responsefrom such insurers?

 

[havasu]

It was from Home Shield, the worst of the home warranty companies.

 

[Rossando]

Can you put service valves for showers and tub fixtures? We'll the answer is yes. Do you have to depends on local codes. Where I'm at we have to because it's code to have shower valves with integrated stops or we install them if the valve didn't come with them. To each there own...if you can afford it go above code because code is the minimum amount of saftey for you and your neighbors property.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

I’m telling you that there are thousands of water heaters in attics and I rarely see a flood from it. When I do see a flood from it, it’s typically from lack of maintenance. Pan drain stopped up with insulation a other debris and a 20 yr old heater.

Even if they do flood it’s just drywall that typically gets damaged along with the typical damage when they’re on the first floor. Big deal. Not all homes have garages or basements, that puts them in a closet in the living space.



I see more floods from heaters on the first floor that do not have a water heater pan.

I see more floods from blown out water supply lines from toilets and faucets.
Blown out washing machine hoses.
Cracked toilet tanks.

Cracked and defective solenoid valves are also a biggie.

There’s a movement toward tankless and a lot of those are placed on the side of the homes here in a warm climate.

They used to put tankless on the outside of the homes here in North Carolina because some people think this is a warm climate. That’s a great idea and until you have the cold snap, and then your lines freeze and you have a big problem.

Everybody in Texas thinks it’s a smart idea to have everything in the attic. Then they had that cold snap a couple of winters ago and hundreds of thousands of people had millions of dollars worth of damage. I don’t care where you are. It’s just really a stupid idea.

A water leak in an attic or on a second floor that destroys the ceiling may just be what you call a simple drywall fix. To most of America that has to pay for it, It’s actually a very big deal and very, very costly… it happened to my neighbor, and it was thousands of dollars to get repaired not to mention all the mess and inconvenience.

A water heater that leaks is not due to lack of maintenance per se. It could just be due to age. Most people don’t like changing things that work. So what point should a water heater be changed? When it’s in the garage, you can change it when it fails, with any kind of failure. You won’t have any damage.

 

[Twowaxhack]

They used to put tankless on the outside of the homes here in North Carolina because some people think this is a warm climate. That’s a great idea and until you have the cold snap, and then your lines freeze and you have a big problem.

Everybody in Texas thinks it’s a smart idea to have everything in the attic. Then they had that cold snap a couple of winters ago and hundreds of thousands of people had millions of dollars worth of damage. I don’t care where you are. It’s just really a stupid idea.

A water leak in an attic or on a second floor that destroys the ceiling may just be what you call a simple drywall fix. To most of America that has to pay for it, It’s actually a very big deal and very, very costly… it happened to my neighbor, and it was thousands of dollars to get repaired not to mention all the mess and inconvenience.

A water heater that leaks is not due to lack of maintenance per se. It could just be due to age. Most people don’t like changing things that work. So what point should a water heater be changed? When it’s in the garage, you can change it when it fails, with any kind of failure. You won’t have any damage.

I didn’t say a water heater leaks from lack of maintenance. I suggest reading my post again, lack of maintenance is what usually causes a flood. Stopped up pan drain.

There are thousands of tankless heaters on the side of houses here and thousands of water heaters in the attics.

Big deal

It’s safer to drive 20 mph so why don’t we lower all speed limits ?

It’s not about what’s “ safer “ it’s about what practical. Very few people consider what’s practical when advocating for code changes, especially people who aren’t contractors or building inspectors.

 

[Twowaxhack]

There are ways to protect a tankless on the side of a house from freezing but homeowners are usually too cheap to purchase the equipment and installation costs.

Cheap homeowners are the problem. They’d rather go on vacation, buy that new car or buy the latest IPhone 97 than spend their money on something the neighbors can’t see…….

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

The way to protect a tankless on the outside is the outside mounting option. That's useless when there's a power failure--and THAT'S when these need it most. The number of severe weather instances is increasing in both severity and frequency everywhere around the country. You sure as heck should plan for the future, not yesterday.

Yes you can also put some kind of enclosure around a tankless, but then you need to heat that enclosure somehow...may as well put these things inside the conditioned building envelope, which means plan for the home's systems at the outset. These days around here they are putting them in garages. Builders have been burned a bit too often with failures and extensive repairs. Once bitten twice shy.

People around here used to never winterize their irrigation systems. The RPZ is generally under an insulated fiberglass cover. That's good only to a certain point. Now people have problems. Last year I replaced TWO of these for neighbors next door and two doors up. $300 each. This past autumn I winterized them as a courtesy. Probably hundreds more in town froze when we had 11 degrees here on December 24, 2022. Was a non-issue for me; I lived in Michigan where you HAD to do this without question. Here, they rolled the dice.

No argument: cheap homeowners are definitely a problem, but more accurately they are un-informed, ill-educated (about their property) homeowners that don't understand their home's systems. My neighbors had no problem paying for the repairs and winterization (well I did that for free) but until it froze they didn't know. Now they do.

I'll never agree that water pipes in an attic or a water heater there is a good idea. In fact it is, without question, about the most dumb-a** stupid place for pipes or a water heater. But, if they want to keep doing, great. My house(s) past present of future will not be that way. To each their own.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The way to protect a tankless on the outside is the outside mounting option. That's useless when there's a power failure--and THAT'S when these need it most. The number of severe weather instances is increasing in both severity and frequency everywhere around the country. You sure as heck should plan for the future, not yesterday.

Yes you can also put some kind of enclosure around a tankless, but then you need to heat that enclosure somehow...may as well put these things inside the conditioned building envelope, which means plan for the home's systems at the outset. These days around here they are putting them in garages. Builders have been burned a bit too often with failures and extensive repairs. Once bitten twice shy.

People around here used to never winterize their irrigation systems. The RPZ is generally under an insulated fiberglass cover. That's good only to a certain point. Now people have problems. Last year I replaced TWO of these for neighbors next door and two doors up. $300 each. This past autumn I winterized them as a courtesy. Probably hundreds more in town froze when we had 11 degrees here on December 24, 2022. Was a non-issue for me; I lived in Michigan where you HAD to do this without question. Here, they rolled the dice.

No argument: cheap homeowners are definitely a problem, but more accurately they are un-informed, ill-educated (about their property) homeowners that don't understand their home's systems. My neighbors had no problem paying for the repairs and winterization (well I did that for free) but until it froze they didn't know. Now they do.

I'll never agree that water pipes in an attic or a water heater there is a good idea. In fact it is, without question, about the most dumb-a** stupid place for pipes or a water heater. But, if they want to keep doing, great. My house(s) past present of future will not be that way. To each their own.

I think you should do more research before posting anymore about protecting tankless on the side of a house from freezing.

 

[havasu]

My Navien TWH had a built in freeze protection when the temps dropped below freezing for a certain amount of time. I can't tell you more because I sold that house.

My current house has a tanked water heater outside, but it has additional insulation and in an enclosure.

Then again, we don't get harsh weather here in California Good thing, because if we did, I'm sure the Governor would try to tax this as well.

 

[Twowaxhack]

My Navien TWH had a built in freeze protection when the temps dropped below freezing for a certain amount of time. I can't tell you more because I sold that house.

My current house has a tanked water heater outside, but it has additional insulation and in an enclosure.

Then again, we don't get harsh weather here in California Good thing, because if we did, I'm sure the Governor would try to tax this as well.

“ We don’t get harsh weather here in California “

Correct and the codes reflect that when it comes to some things like freezing. But there’s always that one time……

That’s what Mitchell is trying to protect against but the builders, buyers, code officials and insurance companies have decided they don’t want it. I understand his position but it’s just not the popular opinion.

 

[cgilley]

It was from Home Shield, the worst of the home warranty companies.

they all suck, unless my MiL is calling them. Wolverine!

 

[cgilley]

I think you should do more research before posting anymore about protecting tankless on the side of a house from freezing.

I'd chime in that " The number of severe weather instances is increasing in both severity and frequency everywhere around the country." smells like climate change nonsense..

 

[Twowaxhack]

I use Rinnai tankless heaters. Exterior Rinnai heaters have freeze protection if the unit has power and is functioning properly.

You can buy an add on kit that automatically drains the water heater if the unit loses power.

Very few people choose to purchase this add on and it’s a risk they assume.
I’m my location in the Deep South I would not install the add on kit personally.

The risk of freezing if the power goes out is a risk I’d be willing to take for a less than $2K water heater in my location. I can always manually drain the heater but of course you have to be at the location and be able to physically go outside and drain the heater if the power fails and it’s below freezing.