Well temporarily loses pressure

[user 34128]

New pressure tank and pressure switch. Two or three times a day pressure decreases down to the pump cut on point but the pump does not start and the pressure drops to zero. In less than a minute the pump turns on and the pressure builds back to the pump cut off point. The system continues for several more normal cycles before it repeats the problem. What could cause this?

 

[GReynolds929]

What is the pressure switch set to? Was the pressure tank set to the proper precharged?

 

[user 34128]

Pressure switch is set to 40/60. The pre-charge is set at 38 lb.

 

[GReynolds929]

I guessing this is a new symptom since the new parts were added.

 

[user 34128]

No actually the pressure tank was replaced hoping that that would solve the problem

 

[user 34128]

The pressure tank was bad and needed to be replaced. Not sure that there was ever anything wrong with the pressure switch.

 

[user 34128]

Intermittently the pump motor hesitates to start for up to a minute after the pressure switch closes to start the pump. 70% of the time the pump kicks on immediately after the pressure switch closes.

 

[Valveman]

The waterlogged tank caused a lot of damage to the pump. Cycling on and off is bad for the pump. Rapid cycling because of a bad tank is really bad for the pump. However, you maybe lucky enough that the problem is just the start capacitor in the start box. If you have a two wire motor with no control box, not much you can do but replace the pump/motor. The overload in the motor is tripping on start up, and they will reset themselves after a minute or so and try again. Stop the cycling with a Cycle Stop Valve and all of those problems will go away.

 

[user 34128]

The waterlogged tank caused a lot of damage to the pump. Cycling on and off is bad for the pump. Rapid cycling because of a bad tank is really bad for the pump. However, you maybe lucky enough that the problem is just the start capacitor in the start box. If you have a two wire motor with no control box, not much you can do but replace the pump/motor. The overload in the motor is tripping on start up, and they will reset themselves after a minute or so and try again. Stop the cycling with a Cycle Stop Valve and all of those problems will go away.

Very helpful information about how the motor overload works. I couldn't figure out why the motor didn't start and in a few months later it would. Thank you for that!
After reviewing some of the comments about Cycle Stop Valves I'm a little afraid of those. Maybe the only thing to help a pump that is tripping out on overload is a new pump?

 

[Valveman]

Very helpful information about how the motor overload works. I couldn't figure out why the motor didn't start and in a few months later it would. Thank you for that!
After reviewing some of the comments about Cycle Stop Valves I'm a little afraid of those. Maybe the only thing to help a pump that is tripping out on overload is a new pump?

Afraid of something that will make your pump last several times longer than normal? What are you reading? You certainly may need a new pump, as that is because it has cycled itself to death. But without a Cycle Stop Valve the problem will just repeat itself with the new pump. Pretty much everything you see on Youtube is a lie or fake news, as they get more clicks from fake news than real news so they promote fake news.

Here are several hundred reviews from people who actually have a CSV, not just think they know how pumps work like those other idiots on Youtube. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

Do you want to solve all your pump system problems or not is the question. If you want to keep having problems, don't get a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[user 34128]

I use YouTube a lot and find it very useful. You're right you can get in trouble there as well. I found the following to be a reasonable counter argument to the cycle stop valve. Be interesting to hear what you think.

 

[Valveman]

I guess this is the only thread on this forum you have read? This has been discussed before many times. Here is the quote and link from the thread just below yours now.

The crazy guy on youtube is not unhinged, he is a crook. He wants me to pay him many thousands of dollars ransom to remove those liable and slanderous videos. Youtube gets more clicks for fake news than real news, so they are not going to help. He knows he is lying, he is just that kind of guy. Says he is making money from clicks like you just did for him. Can't see any of my comments or any from customers who try to straighten him out. Deletes all the accurate information and positive feedback, of which there is plenty of in the last 30+ years of doing this. Anyway, he is not worth discussing.

Here are several hundred accurate reviews from people who have actually seen a Cycle Stop Valve. Lol!
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

https://www.plumbingforums.com/thre...shallow-spring-but-with-a-550-foot-run.26291/

So, thanks a lot for bringing one of many of his stupid videos up so he can make a lot more money from clicks on fake news. I hate to give him any attention. There is nothing credible in any of his videos. But if you want to hear what I have to say, here you go.

 

[MicEd69]

I graduated from the University of Missouri - Rolla, with a BS in Mechanical Engineering in 1973, and became a Registered Engineer in Missouri after 4 years of industrial experience as required. I spent most of my career with Monsanto. And yes, I worked on Round-Up projects. I personally saw the research chemist who "invented" Round-Up drink a tablespoon of the active ingredient in Roundup to show how safe it was. But that is another story.
From day one of my career, I worked with sizing pumps for industrial process applications, and the fluid mechanics associated with pumping systems. ANY trained Mechanical Engineer can understand pump affinity laws and read a pump curve. Like Valveman has said, it's not rocket science. Once one understands that the primary work a pump is doing is moving liquid, then it can be better understood that moving less liquid will take less power. The pressure at which a centrifugal pump operates is relatively independent on the flow rate the pump is producing.
Intuition isn't always right. For instance, which bolted connection below would hold more weight, "A" or "B". It's likely not what a layperson would choose.

 

[Ludington]

I graduated from the University of Missouri - Rolla, with a BS in Mechanical Engineering in 1973, and became a Registered Engineer in Missouri after 4 years of industrial experience as required. I spent most of my career with Monsanto. And yes, I worked on Round-Up projects. I personally saw the research chemist who "invented" Round-Up drink a tablespoon of the active ingredient in Roundup to show how safe it was. But that is another story.
From day one of my career, I worked with sizing pumps for industrial process applications, and the fluid mechanics associated with pumping systems. ANY trained Mechanical Engineer can understand pump affinity laws and read a pump curve. Like Valveman has said, it's not rocket science. Once one understands that the primary work a pump is doing is moving liquid, then it can be better understood that moving less liquid will take less power. The pressure at which a centrifugal pump operates is relatively independent on the flow rate the pump is producing.
Intuition isn't always right. For instance, which bolted connection below would hold more weight, "A" or "B". It's likely not what a layperson would choose.
View attachment 45904
View attachment 45905

Being a lay person, the only difference in your 2 diagrams is a bigger hole in B, so I would think it depends on the bolt you put in there.
But talking about moving liquid, I've read valvemans stuff and understand he says it takes less energy when you choke down on the flow from a pump. (I believe him but) logically I would think anyone would think ... I've got a pump that's pushing water through a wide open pipe and it uses x amount of watts. If I choke that pipe to slow the flow, it would seem that it would create more back pressure and make the pump work harder.
Using more watts. I am going to assume the same theory applies as your pressure tank fills, the pressure mounts causing more back pressure so the watts should reduce. If I watch my well pump, it starts at 38 psi and 1135 watts, when it shuts off at 62 psi it's drawing 1115 watts. Not a big drop, but sort of shows the same principle.
I'm probably all wrong, but that's how my lay mind works.

 

[MicEd69]

The holes were to represent bolt sizes in the plate. And my point was that "logic" without understanding of mechanics can lead one to the wrong answer.

As you said, many think that "choking" a pump down creating a higher pressure makes the pump "work harder". But as I said, the pump's primary "work" is to move fluid. Hence the less amount of fluid that it moves, the less amount of "work" it has to perform.

So, for a standard well pressure switch system, water in the pressure tank flows out when needed until the low set point of the pressure switch is reached. The pump then comes on and pumps the most flow it can based on the pump's performance curve. At this point, the pump is working its hardest. Then when the high switch setting is reached, the pump is turned off. For all house well systems, with an adequate well, the maximum flow from the well is higher than normal house usage. So, the cycle of the pump working as hard as it can for a short time then stopping is repeated over and over and over when water is being used. Mature people do not drive their cars that way, but many teenagers do. LOL. And which way is easier on the car?

And the answer is diagram "A" in my plate connection above. By placing a larger bolt off-center of the load puts a moment on the connection causing more load to be put on the smaller bolt on the left. When the bolt on the left fails, the load is transferred immediately to the remaining two bolts, and they will fail catastrophically. This is a case when bigger isn't better.

 

[Ludington]

The holes were to represent bolt sizes in the plate. And my point was that "logic" without understanding of mechanics can lead one to the wrong answer.

As you said, many think that "choking" a pump down creating a higher pressure makes the pump "work harder". But as I said, the pump's primary "work" is to move fluid. Hence the less amount of fluid that it moves, the less amount of "work" it has to perform.

So, for a standard well pressure switch system, water in the pressure tank flows out when needed until the low set point of the pressure switch is reached. The pump then comes on and pumps the most flow it can based on the pump's performance curve. At this point, the pump is working its hardest. Then when the high switch setting is reached, the pump is turned off. For all house well systems, with an adequate well, the maximum flow from the well is higher than normal house usage. So, the cycle of the pump working as hard as it can for a short time then stopping is repeated over and over and over when water is being used. Mature people do not drive their cars that way, but many teenagers do. LOL. And which way is easier on the car?

And the answer is diagram "A" in my plate connection above. By placing a larger bolt off-center of the load puts a moment on the connection causing more load to be put on the smaller bolt on the left. When the bolt on the left fails, the load is transferred immediately to the remaining two bolts, and they will fail catastrophically. This is a case when bigger isn't better.

I still go with the theory of more back pressure less work. I have a 10 gpm pump, and an 86 gallon tank. I have a geo heat pump that uses 4 1/2 gpm.
Here is a graph of it comming on, the well drops to 38, turns on and runs 4 minutes until 62 psi. The well draws 1148, dropping gradually to 1110 over 4 minutes.
In those 4 minutes, the hp used 18- 20 gallons and the well produced roughly 40 gallons. 18 for the hp and 22 to replace the water in the pressure tank.
Now, the pump could be putting out more than 10 gpm depending on the curve, I think it actually puts out 11-12.
If I used a cycle stop, it would stop at 50 psi (roughly 1125 watts) and run longer to satisfy the usage and then continue up to the 62 psi after the hp stopped.
For me personally, the well kicks on once each time the hp runs. So I don't gain anything, maybe 1 or 2 cycles a day for showers and such. And actually, it would probably cost more as the pump is running longer.
Now if my hp ran longer at each cycle and the pump kicked on 2 or 3 times, I might benifit.
But overall, I believe the cyclestop will cause the running pump to draw less once ut hits your set point.
But it's more for people with small tanks that run a lot of water through.
And I would have failed the A/B question. I would have thought by putting a bolt twice the size in that one hole it would do better.
But I was never good at physics ! Had a terrible teacher, even allowed cheat sheets to be used on our tests.

 

[MicEd69]

the theory of more back pressure less work

It's more than a theory, it's fact. More backpressure on the pump makes it back up along the pump curve and pump less fluid. It's just better to describe the "work" a pump does in terms of flow rate rather than pressure.

And actually, it would probably cost more as the pump is running longer.

Here is where you are going back to pressure and thinking the pump will take more electricity because it is "running longer".

I would have a CSV on a well even if it was a vacation getaway that was only used once a month in the summertime. Constant pressure, lower cycling on the pump, and less volume for a pressure tank just to name a few of their benefits.

But I understand that sometimes, a person cannot accept things that don't make sense to them. I'm often turning up the thermostat at our church because someone has set it at 65 so that the auditorium will cool down faster that leaving it at 72.

 

[Valveman]

Being a lay person, the only difference in your 2 diagrams is a bigger hole in B, so I would think it depends on the bolt you put in there.
But talking about moving liquid, I've read valvemans stuff and understand he says it takes less energy when you choke down on the flow from a pump. (I believe him but) logically I would think anyone would think ... I've got a pump that's pushing water through a wide open pipe and it uses x amount of watts. If I choke that pipe to slow the flow, it would seem that it would create more back pressure and make the pump work harder.
Using more watts. I am going to assume the same theory applies as your pressure tank fills, the pressure mounts causing more back pressure so the watts should reduce. If I watch my well pump, it starts at 38 psi and 1135 watts, when it shuts off at 62 psi it's drawing 1115 watts. Not a big drop, but sort of shows the same principle.
I'm probably all wrong, but that's how my lay mind works.

I still go with the theory of more back pressure less work. I have a 10 gpm pump, and an 86 gallon tank. I have a geo heat pump that uses 4 1/2 gpm.
Here is a graph of it comming on, the well drops to 38, turns on and runs 4 minutes until 62 psi. The well draws 1148, dropping gradually to 1110 over 4 minutes.
In those 4 minutes, the hp used 18- 20 gallons and the well produced roughly 40 gallons. 18 for the hp and 22 to replace the water in the pressure tank.
Now, the pump could be putting out more than 10 gpm depending on the curve, I think it actually puts out 11-12.
If I used a cycle stop, it would stop at 50 psi (roughly 1125 watts) and run longer to satisfy the usage and then continue up to the 62 psi after the hp stopped.
For me personally, the well kicks on once each time the hp runs. So I don't gain anything, maybe 1 or 2 cycles a day for showers and such. And actually, it would probably cost more as the pump is running longer.
Now if my hp ran longer at each cycle and the pump kicked on 2 or 3 times, I might benifit.
But overall, I believe the cyclestop will cause the running pump to draw less once ut hits your set point.
But it's more for people with small tanks that run a lot of water through.
And I would have failed the A/B question. I would have thought by putting a bolt twice the size in that one hole it would do better.
But I was never good at physics ! Had a terrible teacher, even allowed cheat sheets to be used on our tests.

Your mind is working fine. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Your 10 GPM pump is probably pumping 12 GPM when the pump starts at 38 PSI and is drawing 1135 watts. As the tank fills and the pressure increases from 38 to 62 the pump is probably producing 10 GPM as is obvious from the lower watts of 1115. It is the same except the CSV would restrict the flow to 4.5 GPM when the heat pump is running, and the watts would/should drop to about 700 or so. But you are correct that running the full 8 minutes at 4.5 GPM and 700 watts would cause more energy use than running 4 minutes at 1125 watts average. It is the same thing with those variable speed pumps (VFD's) but no body understands that either. But the difference would be so small it would take years to pay off the extra 500 bucks for the larger tank, and a VFD to do that will never pay itself off.

Another advantage to having the CSV would be the mechanical soft stop. It is much easier on everything in the system, especially the check valve, when the pump shuts off while pumping only 1 GPM because of the CSV, rather than slam shut from the 10 GPM position as it does with just a pressure tank. You could still get this advantage using the CSV with the 80 gallon size tank, and it wouldn't change the pump run time or energy usage much. By setting the CSV at 60 PSI, the tank would fill like normal until it reached 60 PSI. By that time your hp has probably shut off, and the CSV would fill the last 2 gallons in the tank at 1 GPM and about 500 watts for 2 more minutes before the well pumps shuts off. This would be about 6 minutes of pump run time with 2 minutes at reduced amperage instead of 4 minutes at full amperage and then a hard stop. The soft stop from the CSV can be worth it when the well pump cycles 100-200 times a day.

As you said there is really no way a CSV can reduce the cycling for a hp if the hp itself cycles a lot, as long as you are using a large pressure tank. My heat pump is sized to come on and run for an hour or three. On a really hot or cold day it runs nearly continuously. I couldn't put on a large enough tank to save my well pump since the heat pump runs nearly all day.

I am looking at replacing my heat pump now. If you need to replace yours maybe you could get one size smaller so the heat pump and the well pump will not cycle so much.

 

[Valveman]

It's more than a theory, it's fact. More backpressure on the pump makes it back up along the pump curve and pump less fluid. It's just better to describe the "work" a pump does in terms of flow rate rather than pressure.


Here is where you are going back to pressure and thinking the pump will tack more electricity because it is "running longer".

I would have a CSV on a well even if it was a vacation getaway that was only used once a month in the summertime. Constant pressure, lower cycling on the pump, and less volume for a pressure tank just to name a few of their benefits.

But I understand that sometimes, a person cannot accept things that don't make sense to them. I'm often turning up the thermostat at our church because someone has set it at 65 so that the auditorium will cool down faster that leaving it at 72.

Thanks for the great explanation and the brain teaser. Up all night thinking about it. Didn't know it was called a "moment" but my head was saying it would be off for some reason because of the larger hole.

 

[Ludington]

Your mind is working fine. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Your 10 GPM pump is probably pumping 12 GPM when the pump starts at 38 PSI and is drawing 1135 watts. As the tank fills and the pressure increases from 38 to 62 the pump is probably producing 10 GPM as is obvious from the lower watts of 1115. It is the same except the CSV would restrict the flow to 4.5 GPM when the heat pump is running, and the watts would/should drop to about 700 or so. But you are correct that running the full 8 minutes at 4.5 GPM and 700 watts would cause more energy use than running 4 minutes at 1125 watts average. It is the same thing with those variable speed pumps (VFD's) but no body understands that either. But the difference would be so small it would take years to pay off the extra 500 bucks for the larger tank, and a VFD to do that will never pay itself off.

Another advantage to having the CSV would be the mechanical soft stop. It is much easier on everything in the system, especially the check valve, when the pump shuts off while pumping only 1 GPM because of the CSV, rather than slam shut from the 10 GPM position as it does with just a pressure tank. You could still get this advantage using the CSV with the 80 gallon size tank, and it wouldn't change the pump run time or energy usage much. By setting the CSV at 60 PSI, the tank would fill like normal until it reached 60 PSI. By that time your hp has probably shut off, and the CSV would fill the last 2 gallons in the tank at 1 GPM and about 500 watts for 2 more minutes before the well pumps shuts off. This would be about 6 minutes of pump run time with 2 minutes at reduced amperage instead of 4 minutes at full amperage and then a hard stop. The soft stop from the CSV can be worth it when the well pump cycles 100-200 times a day.

As you said there is really no way a CSV can reduce the cycling for a hp if the hp itself cycles a lot, as long as you are using a large pressure tank. My heat pump is sized to come on and run for an hour or three. On a really hot or cold day it runs nearly continuously. I couldn't put on a large enough tank to save my well pump since the heat pump runs nearly all day.

I am looking at replacing my heat pump now. If you need to replace yours maybe you could get one size smaller so the heat pump and the well pump will not cycle so much.

Mine is a single stage so it supposedly runs less but produces more.. kind of like running your 2 stage in high .
My therory was to run as short a time as I could to use less water from my well. I was told I needed 1.5 gpm/ ton regardless of single or 2 stage.
So it was single stage and a large tank.... as 20 years ago I had a 20 gallon tank (I think) and my well cycled all the time. Thus the bigger tank. If I new of a csv back then I might have put one on. But even with all the cycling my pump lasted 20 years, and then it quite because of the wires rubbing and shorting out. Replaced it with new and got 23 years out of that one.
If I get 20 out of the new one (I'll probably be dead and it will be someone else's problem) when my pressure tank goes, I'll have to rethink the csv , hopfully it will last too.
The big push on the newer hp is the humidity... run it longer at a warmer temp so it keeps the humidity down. my house stays pretty well around 45 %, so that's fine. And it's 97 today at like 90 % humid outside.
Check what the temp is comming out of your registers. Mine gets to about 55 before it shuts off.
There are so many opinions on geothermal, just have to figure out what works for you. ( I wouldn't want to be pulling water from mybwell for 3 or 4 hours... if you have a closed loop, then that's way different, I couldn't afford that... so it's been diy .. 2 Florida heat pumps, 1450 for the first, 2200 for the second and 3k for my current miami heat pump.)
That's way less than even 1 closed loop.