Water heater venting relocation issue

[Khirsah]

Hi, my water heater decided to start leaking heavily this past weekend. I'm reasonably handy with tools, have done quite a bit of plumbing and such, but some of the finer details escape me. I am looking for suggestions on how to address relocating my water heater vent.

I went out and bought a new 50 gallon tank to replace my 35 year old 40 gal tank. I have not yet installed it, but have no issues with unions, sweating copper, even reconnecting the gas line. I bought a drain pan and a thermal expansion tank. I even bought pipe strap to support it (it's not allowed to use the pipe itself in my city). Point is, I've done my research. There's just one issue I didn't consider. The new tank is about 10 inches taller than the old one. Not a big deal for modifying and reusing the water lines, but if I reuse my vent connection, it'll slope downward to the flue instead of up. Now I've read enough to know that that's bad. I know atmospheric venting relies on the thermal properties of airflow rising, and I know that my vent needs to slope up at a rate of a quarter inch per foot to avoid back drafting. Problem is, I can't move my flue. I am hoping someone will have a reasonably quick fix for this issue or creative idea that won't be too difficult to implement. I've attached some photos for reference. Any advice on how to remedy this last connection would be greatly appreciated.

The new model purchased is a Rheem performance platinum 50 gal 40kbtu model with a height of 59.25in. I did not measure the height of the old tank, but it's about 10 inches shorter than the new one.

 

[MicEd69]

Yes, you have a problem. Rheem has a short model with a height of 50.5 in. From your pictures, it would appear that it would be able to use the existing vent location. The cost is a bit more, but a shorter water heater is likely you only approach if you stay with gas.

There appears to be another concrete filled hole in your wall just above where the existing vent combines with your furnace vent. I assume getting on the other side of that wall to see if you can modify whatever is there would be a chore. And without actual measurements, that may still not work with the taller Rheem.

Sorry.

 

[Khirsah]

Yes, you have a problem. Rheem has a short model with a height of 50.5 in. From your pictures, it would appear that it would be able to use the existing vent location. The cost is a bit more, but a shorter water heater is likely you only approach if you stay with gas.

There appears to be another concrete filled hole in your wall just above where the existing vent combines with your furnace vent. I assume getting on the other side of that wall to see if you can modify whatever is there would be a chore. And without actual measurements, that may still not work with the taller Rheem.

Sorry.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after further research. Unfortunately, Home Depot doesn't stock the short tank. It would take 3 weeks to ship it to me and I'm going through 6 towels a day right now trying to keep the leakage from damaging my furnace. I can't wait 3 weeks for the short tank. The hole in the wall vents into the chimney. I have dual fireplaces, one on the immediate opposite side of that wall and another directly above on the main floor. Both share a single chimney (multiple flues). I assume it goes into the flue as well but I have no way of knowing short of knocking out the concrete. I don't know much about venting, so I was originally hoping to use the existing ductwork. I have no idea what kind of prep work I would need to do to use that 2nd hole if I do open it up.

I ended up calling a tech out to come look at things. I'm hoping for some positive news, otherwise I'm out 80 bucks for the service call. Either way, this needs to get done sooner rather than later. My holiday plans are already ruined, so I don't want this dragging out much longer.

 

[MicEd69]

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after further research. Unfortunately, Home Depot doesn't stock the short tank. It would take 3 weeks to ship it to me and I'm going through 6 towels a day right now trying to keep the leakage from damaging my furnace. I can't wait 3 weeks for the short tank. The hole in the wall vents into the chimney. I have dual fireplaces, one on the immediate opposite side of that wall and another directly above on the main floor. Both share a single chimney (multiple flues). I assume it goes into the flue as well but I have no way of knowing short of knocking out the concrete. I don't know much about venting, so I was originally hoping to use the existing ductwork. I have no idea what kind of prep work I would need to do to use that 2nd hole if I do open it up.

I ended up calling a tech out to come look at things. I'm hoping for some positive news, otherwise I'm out 80 bucks for the service call. Either way, this needs to get done sooner rather than later. My holiday plans are already ruined, so I don't want this dragging out much longer.

Please keep us updated in case the tech has some new innovative answer.

 

[Khirsah]

Please keep us updated in case the tech has some new innovative answer.

The tech looked things over and adjusted the reducer/wye that was going into the flue. He adjusted it to a 40ish degree angle pointing up (from the original horizontal position) and told me to route the 3 in. pipe into that. He said it would still have an upward slope. However, now there is a short downward angle from the 3in pipe to the reducer/wye. I asked him if it was OK to have that short downward bend and he said yes as long as the rest of the pipe slopes upward. It doesn't make much sense to me, but he's the certified tech.

I went ahead and installed the new tank. It took me forever because I did half the stuff wrong...not that I installed it incorrectly, just that I generally started at the wrong end then couldn't get a bend or pipe installed and had to back up a few pieces. But in the end it's all assembled. I have a leak in the hot water union. I think it might have been damaged slightly when I dropped it. It's a new brass union. But the gas line is installed and not leaking, cold water line not leaking. I did not test the draw on the vent yet. Everything else seems to be OK except the hot water union and home depot is closed right now. Another night with no hot water...but at least we have cold water for toilets and such. Will try to finish it with a new union in the morning.

 

[Khirsah]

The tech looked things over and adjusted the reducer/wye that was going into the flue. He adjusted it to a 40ish degree angle pointing up (from the original horizontal position) and told me to route the 3 in. pipe into that. He said it would still have an upward slope. However, now there is a short downward angle from the 3in pipe to the reducer/wye. I asked him if it was OK to have that short downward bend and he said yes as long as the rest of the pipe slopes upward. It doesn't make much sense to me, but he's the certified tech.

I went ahead and installed the new tank. It took me forever because I did half the stuff wrong...not that I installed it incorrectly, just that I generally started at the wrong end then couldn't get a bend or pipe installed and had to back up a few pieces. But in the end it's all assembled. I have a leak in the hot water union. I think it might have been damaged slightly when I dropped it. It's a new brass union. But the gas line is installed and not leaking, cold water line not leaking. I did not test the draw on the vent yet. Everything else seems to be OK except the hot water union and home depot is closed right now. Another night with no hot water...but at least we have cold water for toilets and such. Will try to finish it with a new union in the morning.

All finished. Let me know what you think!

 

[GReynolds929]

In my opinion the flue vent is not proper or safe. I'd be interested in what you found on your draft test. I think the best/only option was the shorter water heater, or going forced vent like a power vent or similar, but that requires a new vent ran in PVC.

 

[Khirsah]

In my opinion the flue vent is not proper or safe. I'd be interested in what you found on your draft test. I think the best/only option was the shorter water heater, or going forced vent like a power vent or similar, but that requires a new vent ran in PVC.

I tested it using both the match method and the mirror method. I did observe the flame being drawn in and there was no fogging on the mirror. And yes, I did make sure the burner was on when I tested as well as for five minutes prior. I know it doesn't show well in the photo, but there is a rise in the pipe all the way until it turns downward into the reducer.

Personally, I was skeptical too, especially getting such advice from a certified technician...it doesn't make much sense to me from what I know of thermodynamics...but so far it seems to be proving out what the tech said.

 

[TomFOhio]

That vent is not done correctly. You can't have any downward slope. Can you go into the chimney above that vent? The
gas company here would red tag that water heater.

 

[Khirsah]

That vent is not done correctly. You can't have any downward slope. Can you go into the chimney above that vent? The
gas company here would red tag that water heater.

Well that was what I was trying to find out by originally posting. As there were a lack of comments, I reached out to a local plumbing company who sent out a tech. He told me this would be acceptable. I even questioned him about the downward bend and he said it would be OK as long as it wasn't a straight 90 degree downward bend. I haven't gotten any poor results testing the vent, it seems to be working OK so far. I don't know if I can go into the hole above, it's filled with concrete and I have no idea where it leads. I asked the tech about that as well and he said it wasn't necessary.

So if a plumbing contractor (Hedlund Plumbing) isn't the right one to ask, who should I be asking? Gas company? Hvac? (Hedlund does hvac as well), someone else?

 

[TomFOhio]

If you want to find out if its done correctly call your gas company. Maybe they do things differently in your area. I've
done many water heater vents and this isn't the way we did them. Please let us know what you find out.

 

[Khirsah]

Please don't misunderstand me, this is why I came here asking my question in the first place. This was the kind of advice i was looking for. It's not the way my instinct would say to install it and I didn't know who to ask. That's why I asked here first. I knew someone would either answer my question or tell me who to talk to. But I didn't get any kind of response and my heater was leaking all over my basement. I couldn't afford to wait. So I called who I thought would know and followed the instructions they gave me. I don't know what else to do.

If you want to find out if its done correctly call your gas company. Maybe they do things differently in your area. I've
done many water heater vents and this isn't the way we did them. Please let us know what you find out.

 

[GReynolds929]

@MicEd69 gave a detailed post with good info and options and is the reason I did not feel the need to respond. There are good companies and bad companies, knowledgeable plumbers and ignorant plumbers. You could gets a second or third opinion and see what others say, But like @TomFOhio says that would not come close to passing inspection or meeting code in my area.

 

[Khirsah]

@MicEd69 gave a detailed post with good info and options and is the reason I did not feel the need to respond. There are good companies and bad companies, knowledgeable plumbers and ignorant plumbers. You could gets a second or third opinion and see what others say, But like @TomFOhio says that would not come close to passing inspection or meeting code in my area.

Well, as I said, I couldn't wait 3 weeks for a short water heater to be shipped. I checked both Home Depot and Lowes for the specifications I wanted and they weren't carried in store. I understand what you're saying about good and bad companies. Hedlund installed the original hot water heater back in 92, I know because their price sticker is still on the gas shutoff valve. So I know they've been in business a while and wouldn't have stuck around giving out poor quality advice or service. But maybe the tech isn't so trustworthy. I repeatedly asked him if it would be OK, if it would pass code, if it would be safe and he spent half an hour mucking around with the elbows showing me how to rout it. He said I would still have an upward rise (which I do) and that the downward bend would be OK right at the connection as long as it wasn't 90 degrees straight down. I performed a draw test with a lit match and a second test with a mirror, both after the burner had been running for at least 5 minutes, per the guidance in the installation manual. I then performed both checks several more times to make sure I wasn't doing them wrong. All I know is things seem to be working OK. I will look into breaking open that other cavity and seeing if I can vent into that instead. It looks like I would still have enough rise to reach it. I am just concerned with what it is, where it might lead, why it was closed off and whether I would then have to reseal it.

 

[MicEd69]

Well that was what I was trying to find out by originally posting. As there were a lack of comments, I reached out to a local plumbing company who sent out a tech. He told me this would be acceptable. I even questioned him about the downward bend and he said it would be OK as long as it wasn't a straight 90 degree downward bend. I haven't gotten any poor results testing the vent, it seems to be working OK so far. I don't know if I can go into the hole above, it's filled with concrete and I have no idea where it leads. I asked the tech about that as well and he said it wasn't necessary.

So if a plumbing contractor (Hedlund Plumbing) isn't the right one to ask, who should I be asking? Gas company? Hvac? (Hedlund does hvac as well), someone else?

Gosh Khirsah, you asked the question at 2:20 AM and I answered it at 9:50 AM the same day. This forum isn't always like Facebook where everyone provides answers to every question. If someone answers a question that is controversial or has some wrong information or someone has a better idea, additional comments may appear. And your question was asked on July 3rd, so some contributors may have been out for the Holiday.

But what others have said is true. That vent would not pass inspection in St. Louis County either.

The answer to who to ask would be the AHJ, the Authority Having Jurisdiction. In St. Louis County, hot water heaters all fall under the jurisdiction of the County building inspectors. The County does "contract" with some of the cities for that inspection, however.

You very well may not have a problem right now, but as the weather changes and gets cooler, you may have instances where you will be getting backdrafts. I'm not going to say that will absolutely happen, but I will say your installation is absolutely wrong and not per code. At this point, my recommendation would be to break out the concrete in that plugged flue connection and get the water heater vent connected into it before the end of this summer. Either use the chimney as the vent if that is what your existing vent is doing, or add a double walled pipe vent,

 

[Khirsah]

Gosh Khirsah, you asked the question at 2:20 AM and I answered it at 9:50 AM the same day. This forum isn't always like Facebook where everyone provides answers to every question. If someone answers a question that is controversial or has some wrong information or someone has a better idea, additional comments may appear. And your question was asked on July 3rd, so some contributors may have been out for the Holiday.

But what others have said is true. That vent would not pass inspection in St. Louis County either.

The answer to who to ask would be the AHJ, the Authority Having Jurisdiction. In St. Louis County, hot water heaters all fall under the jurisdiction of the County building inspectors. The County does "contract" with some of the cities for that inspection, however.

You very well may not have a problem right now, but as the weather changes and gets cooler, you may have instances where you will be getting backdrafts. I'm not going to say that will absolutely happen, but I will say your installation is absolutely wrong and not per code. At this point, my recommendation would be to break out the concrete in that plugged flue connection and get the water heater vent connected into it before the end of this summer. Either use the chimney as the vent if that is what your existing vent is doing, or add a double walled pipe vent,

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Thank you for that information. But just so you know, having my water heater go out the day before the holidays wasn't very convenient for me either. I had to cancel all my travel plans, cancel on my family and spend hundreds that I don't really have to try to fix a problem I wasn't planning on having. I'm sorry if it sounds like I was expecting the community to jump to my aid; that isn't the case. I did the best I could with what information was given to me.

 

[MicEd69]

Thank you for that information. But just so you know, having my water heater go out the day before the holidays wasn't very convenient for me either. I had to cancel all my travel plans, cancel on my family and spend hundreds that I don't really have to try to fix a problem I wasn't planning on having. I'm sorry if it sounds like I was expecting the community to jump to my aid; that isn't the case. I did the best I could with what information was given to me.

Yep, life is sometimes very frustrating. And spending $80 for what is bad advice is as bad as having to install a new water heater on short notice. And the pisser is that if you go to the AHJ and show them what you have, they will likely make you turn off the gas to the water heater. At least you could possibly get a reimbursement of the $80 from Hedlund. Just be prepared to fix it right immediately, or you will still be without hot water.

And realize that those that are commenting on your vent piping are just concerned for your safety and are not criticizing you on what you have done.

 

[Khirsah]

Yep, life is sometimes very frustrating. And spending $80 for what is bad advice is as bad as having to install a new water heater on short notice. And the pisser is that if you go to the AHJ and show them what you have, they will likely make you turn off the gas to the water heater. At least you could possibly get a reimbursement of the $80 from Hedlund. Just be prepared to fix it right immediately, or you will still be without hot water.

And realize that those that are commenting on your vent piping are just concerned for your safety and are not criticizing you on what you have done.

I am aware of that. Of course I want to do it the right and safe way. Just wishing I had received some of this advice a bit earlier. It's not that I didn't appreciate and listen to what you said, but as I explained a few times, it wasn't feasible for me to get a short tank. You asked to be kept apprised, which is what I did. With a lack of any other responses at the time, I did what I thought best and acted on the advice of the tech. I would have certainly preferred to ask more questions here first but time was against me.

 

[GReynolds929]

If you have any plumbing supply houses nearby it might be worth checking with them if you end up having to change the water heater to a short, they might have them in stock. I totally get the time crunch and needing to get it repaired. It is unfortunate that the tech thought that venting would be a good option, even after the repeated questions and concerns by you. Hopefully everything works out for you and the inconvenience is minimal.