Variable speed HVAC units?

[chinarus]

My brother donated a partial tank of R22 to me years ago. Was lucky I had it last year since it is impossible to get a replacement system installed in less than week or two in a rural area due to shipping time and scheduling.
Very happy with the new American Standard Electric Heat Pump which comes from the same factory as Trane at lower price point.

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

I have replaced 8 HVAC systems in the last 10+ years. The most recent was a couple of months ago. You are right about pricing. There has been significant inflation since Covid. I understand that they are coming out with a new refrigerant in the next couple of years, so if your equipment is working, you may want to hold off replacing the system until the new refrigerant comes out, as they may stop making R-410, and it will end up as expensive as R-22.

So-called A2L refrigerants in 2025 I believe and they are flammable.

 

[Ludington]

It's a Comfort Aire by Heat Controler, Inc. But the book that came with it says ClimateMaster. Who knows who made it or how many brands it was sold under. But I wish I could find an exact replacement. It is very simple and reliable. Knock on wood!
View attachment 45930

Here's a link for some diy models...
https://source4air.com/collections/3-ton-water-source-heat-pump
Just in case you were interested.
The coldflow is pretty much the same as Miami heat pump.
Just a simple down to earth geo unit fir open loops.
They box them up real well for shipping, they used to extend the warranty too.

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

Yup, you would think someone would want it. I was just giving it away.
Well, I guess it will just sit under my tablesaw outfield table until I die, then it will be the next guys problem. Never know somebody I know might need some someday.

Hopefully it will sit under your tablesaw's outfield table (whatever that is) for a long, long, long, long, really long time.

 

[Ludington]

Hopefully it will sit under your tablesaw's outfield table (whatever that is) for a long, long, long, long, really long time.

Outfeed, part circled in red....darned autocorrect... but yes a long long time would be great.

 

[cgilley]

Actually, there is something wrong with R22. As a chlorofluorocarbon, it is a potent source of chlorine in the stratosphere - chlorine destroys ozone. This is a fact (I am a chemist and teach environmental chemistry). This was causing a depletion of ozone near the south pole, causing an increase in skin cancer and other problems (ozone protects the earth from excessive UV-C radiation). Since the banning of R22, the ozone hole has been shrinking and may be repaired by 2050. The problem with R410a is that it is a potent greenhouse gas (many, many times worse than CO2), if and when it leaks from a system it significantly contributes to climate change.

I beg to disagree. Could the chemical reaction occur? Yes. Did it? It was never proven. Is it possible that the ozone hole was cyclical? Yes. Could it have been from CFs? Yes. But it was never proven, nor could it be proven. Science is exact, and if you cannot to an actual repeatable experiment, you are still guessing.

In the 70s, the hysteria was the coming ice age. Next came over population. Then came global warming, but the data (if it was valid) did not support the narrative, so we now have climate change. According to Al Gore, the planet should have died 20 years ago.

We have so many environmental cycles that we do not understand nor have sufficient data for. The eruptions of Mount St. Helens and Mt. Pinatubo pushed billions of whatever into the atmosphere, yet no mention of this in the research. Why? Well... I mean no offence, funding comes from finding "problems." The perfect example is the rise in earth's temperatures, no wait, it's now climate change, etc.

Scientists and engineers who disagree with the data are universally shunned and railroaded. Carbon offsets? No scientific basis, but it's a great marketing ploy. Anyone with any sense can see the negative impact the EV industry is having on the environment. But most think they are doing good while looking the other way. I've not seen an honest argument yet. Now, this pseudo-science is entrenched in the federal government and metastazied.

Follow the money.
.

 

[cgilley]

I have a perfectly good and working heat pump system that I gave $5K for about 20 years ago. I serviced it, cleaned the fins and coils this morning. It still looks like new and has a simple compressor, coil, fan, and control board. Because of MY age, I was looking to replace it. The new one is now $15K and has a variable speed compressor, fan, and pump, along with an inverter and two way complicated thermostat. Several of my friends and neighbors have complained about the high cost, short life, multiple problems, and lack of qualified or willing service technicians to keep these systems working. I just want a simple long lasting system like the one I have now and those don't seem to even be available anymore. Has anyone else had one of these systems for 10 years or more and been happy with it, or unhappy?

Stick some cash aside and run with your unit. Read my sad story.... especially catch the end...

So, back in 2001, I added 1800 sq feet to my house (at the time I had 11 kids in the house and it was cheaper than moving and buying a new place - different story). Part of the addition was upgrading my HVAC systems to 4 ton units. I insisted on Trane just because. But, I made it clear, I understood I was going to pay for electricity, but if I was then I wanted to be cool. It's amazing the thermal load from 13 people and more in the house plus the cooking and dishwashers and dryers, etc. Life generates heat. Back then, single stage, simple 80% furnace no big deal. Over the years, I have had multiple techs checking the systems, and all have said they are oversized and need to be replaced. As soon as I mentioned the # of people living in the house, the universal response was "oh".

So in the past 5 years I've been pushing retirement end of life decisions crap. If I go, I don't want my wife left with old systems. I also wanted to pull the trigger on some things I've always wanted - back screen porched, front porch, etc. So the contractor that re-did my bathroom hooked me up with his buddy he uses for HVAC who convinced me to replace the upstairs system (which had failed) with a two stage Goodman system. I'm not happy. If the temp outside goes above 90, the unit cannot hold the upstairs at 77. Toss in an attitude, and he's gone. Why Goodman? Allegedly they are made in the US, but I am not impressed by the two stage approach. Remember, I want to save $$, but I want to be cool. Cool is more important.

Two recommendations: 1) if it's not broke, don't f with it. 2) Establish a relationship with a company and a person who knows you by name. The jury is still out on the Goodman but the HVAC company is toast.

Backup story - I live in Atlanta where the HVAC companies are all being bought up by who the hell knows. Based on a radio ad, I had a guy come out and quote me two Trane units (no longer made in the US) for about 15k a system. But I could lease them. I wonder what his commission is? Jeesh.

Backup story #2 - back in 1966 when my family moved from NY to NC, a new house was built with a Bryant ac unit. The house was demolished 2 years ago, the ac unit was still working fine. Could it be more efficient? Sure.

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

I bit my tongue because this could get political, but as long as this has to do with science, I agree with what @cgilley has to say.

I have an additional question regarding holes in the OZONE: Why is the hole in the OZONE only hovering over the South Pole and not the North? I understand there may have been a hole in the OZONE layer but that's been closed for whatever reason which leads me to believe that the holes are cyclical, per @cgilley, and has nothing much to do with what human beings are doing.

Enlighten us!

 

[cgilley]

I bit my tongue because this could get political, but as long as this has to do with science, I agree with what @cgilley has to say.

I have an additional question regarding holes in the OZONE: Why is the hole in the OZONE only hovering over the South Pole and not the North? I understand there may have been a hole in the OZONE layer but that's been closed for whatever reason which leads me to believe that the holes are cyclical, per @cgilley, and has nothing much to do with what human beings are doing.

Enlighten us!

If we're going there, I'll repost to the correct forum, let's not hijack the thread. Confession - I just have a hard time letting this stuff go. It's a character flaw I'm still working on.

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

I resisted mightily yesterday and had to put quite a dent in a fifth of Macallan 18 y.o. Double Cask Single Malt to calm myself down. I, too, have that character flaw. But, I'm still interested in why the hole in the OZONE is always over Antarctica.

 

[Ludington]

Stick some cash aside and run with your unit. Read my sad story.... especially catch the end...

So, back in 2001, I added 1800 sq feet to my house (at the time I had 11 kids in the house and it was cheaper than moving and buying a new place - different story). Part of the addition was upgrading my HVAC systems to 4 ton units. I insisted on Trane just because. But, I made it clear, I understood I was going to pay for electricity, but if I was then I wanted to be cool. It's amazing the thermal load from 13 people and more in the house plus the cooking and dishwashers and dryers, etc. Life generates heat. Back then, single stage, simple 80% furnace no big deal. Over the years, I have had multiple techs checking the systems, and all have said they are oversized and need to be replaced. As soon as I mentioned the # of people living in the house, the universal response was "oh".

So in the past 5 years I've been pushing retirement end of life decisions crap. If I go, I don't want my wife left with old systems. I also wanted to pull the trigger on some things I've always wanted - back screen porched, front porch, etc. So the contractor that re-did my bathroom hooked me up with his buddy he uses for HVAC who convinced me to replace the upstairs system (which had failed) with a two stage Goodman system. I'm not happy. If the temp outside goes above 90, the unit cannot hold the upstairs at 77. Toss in an attitude, and he's gone. Why Goodman? Allegedly they are made in the US, but I am not impressed by the two stage approach. Remember, I want to save $$, but I want to be cool. Cool is more important.

Two recommendations: 1) if it's not broke, don't f with it. 2) Establish a relationship with a company and a person who knows you by name. The jury is still out on the Goodman but the HVAC company is toast.

Backup story - I live in Atlanta where the HVAC companies are all being bought up by who the hell knows. Based on a radio ad, I had a guy come out and quote me two Trane units (no longer made in the US) for about 15k a system. But I could lease them. I wonder what his commission is? Jeesh.

Backup story #2 - back in 1966 when my family moved from NY to NC, a new house was built with a Bryant ac unit. The house was demolished 2 years ago, the ac unit was still working fine. Could it be more efficient? Sure.

2 stage sucks, it's the latest fad, they run constantly. I like the old and simple. 1 stage, run till it's cool and shut down, not run and run just to curculate the air. And pushing closed loop just so they can install an overly complicated piece of equipment and charge many many k.
No thank you, I'll stick with my diy singlestage .

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

I beg to disagree. Could the chemical reaction occur? Yes. Did it? It was never proven. Is it possible that the ozone hole was cyclical? Yes. Could it have been from CFs? Yes. But it was never proven, nor could it be proven. Science is exact, and if you cannot to an actual repeatable experiment, you are still guessing.

So...the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/1995/press-release/ was all an unproven joke? All this talk about the ozone layer, etc. is all completely unproven and thus none of it science? Not any element of truth in there?

I have a good friend and he always says "it is what it is". We as consumers are only able to use and buy what is offered to us. We cannot choose a refrigerant.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

2 stage sucks, it's the latest fad, they run constantly.

Well, the a/c should be running very often, no dehumidification unless it's running. You can cool quickly without it, but that's the rub of an oversized system. They cool too quickly and don't dehumidify...and if you have any kind of humidity sensor that would over ride the thermostat, you'll get cooler than you want to.

Sizing of any unit, including a 2-stage is critical...

But they don't make them like they used to, that's for sure. Nothing built today is as robust as a unit built 35 years ago. I've had two neighbors frighteningly close to me have leaks in their evaporator. Oh, yes the part is warranted, but the labor and freon is not. The warranty repair was over $1,500 each, and a week's waiting for the part! These units about five years old. Lennox which seems to be the preferred brand of builders here. Am I next? Maybe I should sign up for one of those home warranty deals...

 

[Ludington]

Well, the a/c should be running very often, no dehumidification unless it's running. You can cool quickly without it, but that's the rub of an oversized system. They cool too quickly and don't dehumidify...and if you have any kind of humidity sensor that would over ride the thermostat, you'll get cooler than you want to.

Sizing of any unit, including a 2-stage is critical...

But they don't make them like they used to, that's for sure. Nothing built today is as robust as a unit built 35 years ago. I've had two neighbors frighteningly close to me have leaks in their evaporator. Oh, yes the part is warranted, but the labor and freon is not. The warranty repair was over $1,500 each, and a week's waiting for the part! These units about five years old. Lennox which seems to be the preferred brand of builders here. Am I next? Maybe I should sign up for one of those home warranty deals...

My single runs when it wants and I'm about at 45 %. And in sc, it's darned humid. I'm very happy with mine. However it did have a condenser leak at $750.00 so I'm still way ahead of the curve. But my tech said, condensers go out all the time, a very common problem.. cheap parts from china...

 

[DaveW]

I resisted mightily yesterday and had to put quite a dent in a fifth of Macallan 18 y.o. Double Cask Single Malt to calm myself down. I, too, have that character flaw. But, I'm still interested in why the hole in the OZONE is always over Antarctica.

I bit my tongue because this could get political, but as long as this has to do with science, I agree with what @cgilley has to say.

I have an additional question regarding holes in the OZONE: Why is the hole in the OZONE only hovering over the South Pole and not the North? I understand there may have been a hole in the OZONE layer but that's been closed for whatever reason which leads me to believe that the holes are cyclical, per @cgilley, and has nothing much to do with what human beings are doing.

Enlighten us!

There is ozone depletion over the Arctic - it's just not as severe as over the Antarctic. The reason is the arctic stratosphere doesn't stay as cold and for such a long period of time as the Antarctic stratosphere. Polar vortex and polar stratospheric clouds (necessary for the ozone depletion process) require very cold temperatures - the longer those extreme cold temperatures exist, the more ozone depletion occurs.

As for direct evidence for role of CFC in ozone depletion. NASA designed a satellite that measures chlorine and ozone (as well as some other chemicals) in the stratosphere. It shows that chlorine levels are decreasing in the ozone hole and there is a significant decrease in ozone depletion.

Yes there still are those who question the dangers of CFCs (questioning is a good thing!), but the evidence is very strong that CFCs and other chlorine & bromine-based compounds cause ozone depletion.

If you are interested, I encourage you to take a class in atmospheric science or environmental chemistry to learn more about the subject.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

2 stage sucks, it's the latest fad, they run constantly.

I had a two stage York, new in 2009. Ran quite well, and surely not constantly. It was the "Cat's Meow" and very reliable. Still working fine when I sold the home 10 years later. Two stage heat pump. Variable speed DC blower/air handler. Modulating gas furnace. It had it all... I'd do it again.

 

[cgilley]

I resisted mightily yesterday and had to put quite a dent in a fifth of Macallan 18 y.o. Double Cask Single Malt to calm myself down. I, too, have that character flaw. But, I'm still interested in why the hole in the OZONE is always over Antarctica.

"had to put quite a dent in a fifth of Macallan 18 y.o. Double Cask Single Malt" epic quote. Still laughing.

 

[cgilley]

So...the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/1995/press-release/ was all an unproven joke? All this talk about the ozone layer, etc. is all completely unproven and thus none of it science? Not any element of truth in there?

I have a good friend and he always says "it is what it is". We as consumers are only able to use and buy what is offered to us. We cannot choose a refrigerant.

I think if you read what I posted, I was not being dogmatic in that the ozone/freon conclusion was wrong. The conclusion was simply unprovable. So we have a hypothesis, then a theory and then proof. We never made it to step 3.

As for the noble prize nonsense, this is the same group that gave it to President Obama. For doing NOTHING. He was just a shiny black man that talks well. He also called down more airstrikes and targeted killing in the history of the United States. Honestly, bad people need to die, it's the purpose of government, but citing a Nobel prize doesn't get me excited.

There was a leading lab in Britain years ago that got caught falsifying temperature data. Crickets. Some smart ass (s) came up with spoof submissions for scientific conferences, and the papers were all accepted. It's called group think. And group think will get you killed or poor.

Again, follow the money. It's almost scientific. I could go on, but I won't. We're hijacking a basic ac thread. Meanwhile, the EV craze is raping the environment.

fwiw, no disrespect at all.

 

[Ludington]

I had a two stage York, new in 2009. Ran quite well, and surely not constantly. It was the "Cat's Meow" and very reliable. Still working fine when I sold the home 10 years later. Two stage heat pump. Variable speed DC blower/air handler. Modulating gas furnace. It had it all... I'd do it again.

Was that a geothermal or just a standard ? You kind of have to watch how much those run ( if it's an open loop, pulling from your well)

 

[Valveman]

Hijack away
I'm loving it. All related.