Sewage Pit Venting

[adalius]

I was looking at buying a house and decided to pass on it after home inspection since they refused to fix anything, but the plumbing in the basement had me thinking so this question is more for curiosity's sake than anything...

Imagine a house with 2 pits. One is a sump (dry, no pump or plumbing installed, hasn't had water show up in it since it was built due to elevation above surrounding area on what is essentially a gravel mound).

The other is a sanitary crock that only handles condensate from the HVAC, backwash from the water softener, and the T&P valve from a water heater (via air gap p trap). This crock had a pump plumbed to run up about 6' then back down into the septic tee, no check valve installed. There was no vent as the crock wasn't sealed (it just had the concrete 2-part lid which allowed free air flow). As you can probably imagine, the basement had a slight odor to it.

The house has radon so had I bought it I would have had to put in a radon mitigation system.

If I did that, it had ample room to run a radon vent out the rim joist and up above the roof line (2 story house).

From my understanding, to repair the sanitary crock properly one would have to seal the sanitary crock, install a check valve, and then install a dedicated vent through the roof.

I also understand from everything I see that you cannot tie a sewage ejector pit's vent to the radon mitigation system.

So here's what I'm wondering...
If the pit is only being used for water, not actual sewage like there would be from a basement toilet or similar, whats the reasoning behind not tying it to the radon vent?

Working it out in my head I can't really think of a situation where it would be an issue...
The fan would pull the air out of both pits and eject well above the roof line. In the event of a failure of the fan the sewage pit would still vent normally like a normal roof vent since the fans aren't positive displacement so the air still can draft around the blades.
When the pump is running and creating suction, it would simply draw a little bit of air back down the radon exhaust line into the sump (again, because the fan isn't positive displacement), which wouldn't cause an issue since the sewage pit is also sealed and once the pump stops the fan would again ventilate the space.
I can't think of a scenario where it would cause positive pressure in either pit...

So is there a reason I'm missing that prohibits the vent from being tied into the radon stack? There's probably a totally rational reason for it but my newbie mind just can't wrap my head around it at the moment...

 

[frodo]

where are you located, different codes for different states/ countries

 

[adalius]

I'm in Wisconsin.

 

[frodo]

you are under SPS code.

I am not familiar with it at all.

never heard of it.

typically, the answer to your question is the code says no,

I suggest, you call your local building department, ask for the plumbing inspector.

talk to him about your venting,

 

[adalius]

Well, again, it's not my venting since I passed on the house, it's just something I was curious about since I can't think of a good reason why it is the way it is.

 

[KULTULZ]

I suggest, you call your local building department, ask for the plumbing inspector.

talk to him about your venting,

...hmmph...

Venting a sump crock is done on a normal basis- http://www.indoor-air-health-advisor.com/radon-mitigation-system.html#heavyduty

I would like to know what the inspector says myself.

 

[adalius]

...hmmph...

Venting a sump crock is done on a normal basis- http://www.indoor-air-health-advisor.com/radon-mitigation-system.html#heavyduty

I would like to know what the inspector says myself.

I know venting crocks is done normally, that's not the point of contention, it's the bit about not tying the vent from one crock into the radon exhaust vent of another crock that has me befuddled. I just can't think of a logical reason where it would fail in a bad way that would cause them to determine that it shouldn't be done. As long as the vents are tied below the fan and not above it, I just can't imagine what would go wrong.

It allows air travel in both directions to handle when the pump is creating suction, it exhausts gasses even more efficiently than a normal draft vent, if the fan fails it becomes a normal draft vent, there's no situation where the fan could push radon into the sump since it's located downstream from the tee... I just feel like I must be missing some obvious issue...

 

[KULTULZ]

The house has radon so had I bought it I would have had to put in a radon mitigation system.

So here's what I'm wondering...

If the pit is only being used for water, not actual sewage like there would be from a basement toilet or similar, whats the reasoning behind not tying it to the radon vent?

Was a radon test performed on the indoor air and water? If the house (supply) water and/or tile drainage has low or no radon, you wouldn't need to vent the crocks unless they were open to the ground under the slab (there are specialty crocks for radon). You say there is no tile drainage to one so there should be little radon introduction there with a depressurization system.

Usually, an air radon problem is addressed with a below slab depressurization system and all foundation floor/wall cracks be sealed.

As for your original question, only your local AHJ (inspector) or radon specialist will be able to answer correctly most likely unless there is someone here familiar with the code in your area.

Please get back with what you find out as it is most interesting.

I hope I made this understandable...

 

[frodo]

Using a sewer vent for your radon vent could be explosive and smelly. If the fan was not operating sewer gasses could fall down the radon vent and settle under the house. This is a serious plumbing code violation and safety issue.
wisconson
1-888 LOW RADON (1-888-569-7236).

 

[KULTULZ]

Using a sewer vent for your radon vent could be explosive and smelly. If the fan was not operating sewer gasses could fall down the radon vent and settle under the house. This is a serious plumbing code violation and safety issue.

wisconson
1-888 LOW RADON (1-888-569-7236).

...hmm...

Newly learned factoid of the day...

 

[adalius]

Was a radon test performed on the indoor air and water?

Only the air was tested, not water.

If the house (supply) water and/or tile drainage has low or no radon, you wouldn't need to vent the crocks unless they were open to the ground under the slab (there are specialty crocks for radon). You say there is no tile drainage to one so there should be little radon introduction there with a depressurization system.

I guess I may not have been clear, but the existing sump pit is connected to the drain tiles. It just never has had water in it (surrounding grading and soil conditions allow very little water into the soil around the house), nor does it have any plumbing that drains into it other than the drain tiles. In this part of Wisconsin, the majority of radon systems when a sump crock is present utilize the drain tiles as a means for drawing air out from under the slab.

Using a sewer vent for your radon vent could be explosive and smelly. If the fan was not operating sewer gasses could fall down the radon vent and settle under the house. This is a serious plumbing code violation and safety issue.
wisconson
1-888 LOW RADON (1-888-569-7236).

Yes, I read this on a site before I posted here but I'm not sure if it makes a ton of sense. If the fan fails the radon stack is now acting exactly like a static plumbing vent.

So anyway, since this seems to have piqued curiosity, I ended up buying a different house in the same village and met with the inspector to close up an electrical upgrade last week (one inspector for the whole village so he does HVAC/electrical/plumbing/structural/etc). I explained my curiosity about the situation and to paraphrase what he told me, he said that if the sanitary crock vent was tied to the radon vent and the sanitary crock vent served only the sanitary crock, and most importantly, the sanitary crock was only used for condensate/softener backwash/etc and not any household waste (sink/toilet/shower/etc), he would be fine with such a setup as any gasses formed would be minimal and pose very little threat if the fan failed as long as it was checked for operation on a regular basis. Obviously if the fan failed and it sat dormant for a year, that might be a different story.

I obviously cannot say this is a code compliant response, or that all BI's would view it the same way, but that was his response for this isolated situation if it had ever come to fruition. So I guess that settles my curiosity.

 

[KULTULZ]

Only the air was tested, not water.

I guess I may not have been clear, but the existing sump pit is connected to the drain tiles. It just never has had water in it (surrounding grading and soil conditions allow very little water into the soil around the house), nor does it have any plumbing that drains into it other than the drain tiles. In this part of Wisconsin, the majority of radon systems when a sump crock is present utilize the drain tiles as a means for drawing air out from under the slab.

Something new learned for the day...

...met with the inspector to close up an electrical upgrade last week (one inspector for the whole village so he does HVAC/electrical/plumbing/structural/etc). I explained my curiosity about the situation and to paraphrase what he told me, he said that if the sanitary crock vent was tied to the radon vent and the sanitary crock vent served only the sanitary crock, and most importantly, the sanitary crock was only used for condensate/softener backwash/etc and not any household waste (sink/toilet/shower/etc), he would be fine with such a setup as any gasses formed would be minimal and pose very little threat if the fan failed as long as it was checked for operation on a regular basis. Obviously if the fan failed and it sat dormant for a year, that might be a different story.

I obviously cannot say this is a code compliant response, or that all BI's would view it the same way, but that was his response for this isolated situation if it had ever come to fruition. So I guess that settles my curiosity.

My concern would be if a later owner would make the septic basin operable without realizing it DID NOT HAVE a proper vent.

But you did correct, you asked the authority...

 

[BudgetPlumbing]

Great thread, sometimes it's best to find a local plumber that would give you a free estimate or advice on what you can do to fix the problem.

 

[adalius]

Yea, like I said this was all just a brain exercise. I didn't buy that house, so it's not my problem to fix it. Luckily the new house had a radon system already installed and the sanitary crock was properly vented on its own so none of this is an issue for me.

 

[frodo]

So anyway, since this seems to have piqued curiosity, I ended up buying a different house in the same village and met with the inspector to close up an electrical upgrade last week (one inspector for the whole village so he does HVAC/electrical/plumbing/structural/etc). I explained my curiosity about the situation and to paraphrase what he told me, he said that if the sanitary crock vent was tied to the radon vent and the sanitary crock vent served only the sanitary crock, and most importantly, the sanitary crock was only used for condensate/softener backwash/etc and not any household waste (sink/toilet/shower/etc), he would be fine with such a setup as any gasses formed would be minimal and pose very little threat if the fan failed as long as it was checked for operation on a regular basis. Obviously if the fan failed and it sat dormant for a year, that might be a different story.

I reject his credentials as a plumbing inspector on the grounds that.

to be a state inspector it requires you to be a "master" in that field
that takes a minimum 6 years to accomplish
plus 5 years in the field AS a master
that, is 11 years total years to qualify.
the OP states he is the inspector for a minimum of 4 trades
that would be approx 44 years of study and experience he would have to have to be the inspector for ALL the trades

secondly, this is just my opinion,
no plumbing inspector in their right mind would ok the potential safety
hazards that this "study at home" yahoo inspector has allegedly passed


Again, this is just my opinion, with it and 50 cents you can buy a cup of coffee

 

[adalius]

you are under SPS code.

I am not familiar with it at all.

I reject his credentials as a plumbing inspector on the grounds that.

to be a state inspector it requires you to be a "master" in that field
that takes a minimum 6 years to accomplish
plus 5 years in the field AS a master
that, is 11 years total years to qualify.
the OP states he is the inspector for a minimum of 4 trades
that would be approx 44 years of study and experience he would have to have to be the inspector for ALL the trades

I'm saying he's the inspector for 4 trades based only upon the fact that he's listed as one of only 2 BIs on town website and one only works part time, its possible they subcontract some of those trades.

Secondly, under WI SPS 305.63, which you above stated you are not familiar with SPS at all, it says you only need to only to be UDC (uniform dwelling code) certified for the particular field you are applying for (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, construction) or a certified commercial inspector in that field. Nowhere does it say you have to be a master in any field in this state to obtain a UDC credential. To become UDC certified you need only pay a fee and pass a test. The state actually offers all the training as well through short technical college programs. So while I appreciate your input, you're incorrect in your assessment that it would take 44 years. That might be the case in other states, but as you pointed out, we're under SPS here.

 

[frodo]

Talked to 2 Wisconsin state plumbing inspectors.

715 760 0027 Brian
715 839 4947 randy

their position was a hearty laugh and a "HELL NO"

you can not under the Wisconson plumbing code tie the radon vent into ANY plumbing vent

be it, sewage ejector, sump pit, or sanitary vent. It SHALL vent out seperatly

they want to know who the village inspector is, one called him the village Idiot

 

[adalius]

This is *NOT* an actual plumbing situation, just a hypothetical one out of the sake of curiosity based upon a scenario that was observed in a house that isn't my problem, so, I got several answers and reasonings, you can continue to dig into it if you like but at this point my curiosity is satiated so I'm done with it.

 

[frodo]

My curiosity was peaked also. that is why I made the phone calls.

I asked him to explain the concept of a village inspector. I have never heard that term before.

He said, small town ships contract out inspectors to contractors, plumbing co. owners electrical..etc.

quite interesting actually,

I' m glad that together we were able to get to the bottom of the plumbing situation to satisfy your curiosity and mine as well.

 

[adalius]

My curiosity was peaked also. that is why I made the phone calls.

I asked him to explain the concept of a village inspector. I have never heard that term before.

He said, small town ships contract out inspectors to contractors, plumbing co. owners electrical..etc.

quite interesting actually,

I' m glad that together we were able to get to the bottom of the plumbing situation to satisfy your curiosity and mine as well.

It's weird depending where you are in Wisconsin too. So this was a village (in terms of town size), and they have an inspector that handles buildings in the village, and through contracts, he also handles 2 neighboring towns. So where-as Warrens contracts Brian through his private business, in this village the BI is actually a local government employee working out of the town hall directly. Some of the larger towns have a full BI department with several inspectors still in the town hall, and then the major cities have a full department who are usually in the DPW building or even have their own building in some cases.