Question about proper grounding; replacing old copper with PEX.

[NotMario]

So I've got a 1950s house and I'm in the planning stages of a project to replace all the copper plumbing with PEX. The copper is in really bad shape, there are ancient gate valves all over the place that leak/are heavily corroded. Needless to say, none of this looks like it was ever done to code and the whole supply line is a hodgepodge of copper and PEX before it even gets to the meter (in the basement) and then random sections of galv, copper and PEX throughout the house starting around the water heater. Basically there's about 3" of 3/4" copper coming out of the wall, followed by a ball valve that goes to a couple of inches of 3/4" PEX with corroded SS clamps (photo 1), then a 90 degree fitting, then ~2' of PEX again then a SharkBite to copper to the water meter (photo 2). There's a wire in photo 2 (not the one coming from the top of the meter, I believe that runs out to the panels outside the house so that the water company can read the meter without needing to access the basement), the other wire was just laying on the ground, not connected to anything at all. Then from photo 2, past the water meter, the line runs up past all the backflow and pressure reducing valves up and right across the joists to the water heater, but before it gets to that, there's armored romex coming out the electrical panel and hooked up to the pipe directly (photo 3). On the exterior side of the house (from around where the water supply line is buried) there is a newish copper grounding rod with what looks to be 6 AWG stranded wire clamped to it (couldn't get a good photo of it because it's in an overgrown section and covered with snow but it runs to the panel from what I could gather.

Anyhow, my plan is to basically remove all the copper and run PEX as there are multiple slow leaks all over the place from most of the valves (even the pressure valve is leaking) starting from the valve in the first photo. So PEX from there, to the meter, then PEX again with the backflow, pressure reducer, etc. But then what do I do about the grounding situation for the meter and for the romex? That romex would have nothing to be connected to and since there's the grounding rod outside, should I just install another grounding rod a few feet away from it and replace that romex with #6 solid wire? Or pull the romex from the panel and run the #6 directly to the 3" of copper sticking out from the wall and clamp it to that? But then that leaves the water meter not grounded, should I just connect it with a short length of copper wire on both sides before hooking up the PEX? But I don't see what that would accomplish since the meter would be isolated by PEX on both sides.

 

[breplum]

From Terry Love's site, written by W Whitney:
If the water service coming to your house is metallic, and you have at least 10' of underground metal water pipe, then your underground water pipe is a grounding electrode, and you must connect to it within 5' of its entering the house, and the connection must be accessible. The other end of the wire (called the Grounding Electrode Conductor) goes to the neutral service conductor at the service disconnect or anywhere on the utility side of the service disconnect.

If your water pipe does not qualify as a grounding electrode, either because the water service isn't metallic, or because it's not buried for at least 10', then you instead need a bonding conductor to the metal water piping system. The bond can connect anywhere within that piping system, and the other end of the bonding wire can go to any convenient EGC (ground). I don't know if that bonding connection is required to be accessible.

If you have metallic hot and cold water piping, and if the water heater itself interrupts continuity (e.g. a dielectric fitting), then you would also need to bond around the water heater to maintain continuity. That bond would presumably be accessible, although again I don't know if it is required to be accessible.

In all of the above cases, you will need to have a different grounding electrode, which could be 2 ground rods, or a concrete encased electrode (Ufer), or one of the other electrodes listed in Article 250 of the NEC.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Since it looks like you have a reasonably modern service panel, with circuit breakers instead of fuses, instead of worrying about grounding and your plumbing, I would just call an electrician and have your service panel properly grounded with ground rods, the way it would be done if new today. if you don’t want to call Electrician, there’s plenty of instructions on how to do this, and you can purchase the ground rods at any electrical supply or big box store. Once you have properly grounded the service panel with ground rods outside, then you can bond this to your existing waterline coming in if you choose. It’s not necessary, but can’t hurt.

Hopefully the rest of your electrical system in the house does not rely on the copper plumbing for any grounding, and that you do indeed have wires with ground, connecting all your electrical points in the home.

By the way, I feel your pain! My first house had a total mashup of galvanized, black iron gas pipe, as well as copper all used for plumbing. Was quite a trick to sort it all out. And I had the same problem with old valves that you are experiencing. It took me some time, but I eventually changed it all out to proper shut off valves, ball style with levers…

 

[havasu]

I want to upgrade my service panel but with the recent electrical codes, it has bumped the cost an additional $2000 - $3000. My area requires 3) 10' copper grounding rods within 5' of the panel, along with a continuous #3 gauge copper wire clamped only to the incoming water line, not to just any spigot. for me, this panel upgrade was priced at $6,000. Nope, I won't do it.

 

[MicEd69]

I want to upgrade my service panel but with the recent electrical codes, it has bumped the cost an additional $2000 - $3000. My area requires 3) 10' copper grounding rods within 5' of the panel, along with a continuous #3 gauge copper wire clamped only to the incoming water line, not to just any spigot. for me, this panel upgrade was priced at $6,000. Nope, I won't do it.

Don't you mean the first ground rod is 5' from the panel, but the other 2 need to be like 10' from it and each from other? The usual requirement is for 2 ground rods at least 10' apart, but California may have some special requirements because, well its California.

 

[havasu]

Don't you mean the first ground rod is 5' from the panel, but the other 2 need to be like 10' from it and each from other? The usual requirement is for 2 ground rods at least 10' apart, but California may have some special requirements because, well its California.

Exactly. There are specific parameters for the new code, but because I live in a an extremely rocky terrain, most electricians I've spoken say the local inspectors will allow shallower depth ground rods, provided you use more of them. Just a huge quagmire just to upgrade my panel.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Just a huge quagmire just to upgrade my panel.

It’s true pretty much anywhere. Not just CA or wherever.

It all depends on the nature of the upgrade and just how old/bad your existing panel is.

If you have a 25 year old, 150A panel that you want to upgrade to 200A, not that big a deal. If you have a 60 year old fuse box with 60A service, yeah it’s a big deal.

The latter was my dad’s case, but an old fuse box with 100A service. Though entirely possible, a local electrician didn’t want to add a sub panel to that. (I did, all properly fused and grounded). He wanted only to install a modern 200A panel, Massachusetts mandated emergency disconnect on the exterior, new 200A pole drops, new meter, mast, head and box etc. basically everything. Was going to cost many thousands $$$$.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Oh, this just came in my email and I couldn’t resist posting!!!

 

[havasu]

Oh, this just came in my email and I couldn’t resist posting!!!

Great marketing. Get paid to push a new panel on homeowners. They should have offered free inspections. They would have made much more money.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

…Get paid to push a new panel on homeowners.

There ARE some panels people have that should be changed (Federal Pacific Stab-Loc amongst others including Zinsco, Challenger and Bulldog) REGARDLESS of anything as they are known to be dangerous.

 

[havasu]

I don't disagree, but so is aluminum wiring, PBP pipe, termite infestation, leaking valves and flat roofs. You need to choose your battles because a fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

There’s nothing wrong with aluminum wiring if it’s connected properly. It’s used for all service entrance and drops.

Some of those things are trouble, but those service panels I mentioned will cause a fire, have caused fires and killed many people. Any questions?

If you have any of those four service panels, and you change to a new one, the only part that makes you a fool is not doing it sooner.

 

[havasu]

My previous house had aluminum wiring. It was necessary to change all the outlets annually until I used a pigtail with massive amounts of Noalox. One year I forgot and a duplex caught on fire behind my kid's bed, catching the bedspread on fire.

There isn't a house out there where the contractor didn't cut corners. A smart homeowner knows where these corners were cut, and watch them closely, or replace as soon as possible.

I once inherited a home with knob and tube wiring. This K&T wiring has been discontinued since the 1940's, but yet, there are still hundreds of thousands of homes that still have K&T wiring. I wanted to replace this old wiring with new wiring, but the inspectors let me know if I was to touch it, I would own it, and I would be forced to upgrade my entire electrical system. This was a $15K hit, for a $100K house, so I just left it alone, and just sold the house as is.

Again, you just need to understand your home's shortcomings and replace items prudently.

 

[chinarus]

Installing 6 foot ground rods can be very difficult for a DIYer without special tools depending on the terrain.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Installing 6 foot ground rods can be very difficult for a DIYer without special tools depending on the terrain.

You’re right. If you hit a big rock, well it’s tough—maybe impossible!

Small sledgehammer can help!

 

[Twowaxhack]

Rent a ground rod driver attachment and a rotary hammer

Call before you dig………you dig ?

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Rent a ground rod driver attachment and a rotary hammer

Call before you dig………you dig ?

Interesting. What’s a ground rod driver attachment look like?

 

[Twowaxhack]

Interesting. What’s a ground rod driver attachment look like?

https://www.northerntool.com/produc...VMnJ_AB0WHwe1EAQYASABEgJR-fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[chinarus]

I made a rod driver by welding a pipe sleeve to an old SDS chisel being cheap...

 

[MicEd69]

In non-rocky soil, I've had good results chucking 10-foot ground rods in my 9-amp drill. It's a 2-person job with 2 ladders to get it started, and sometimes the last 12" to 18" need pounded in with a sledgehammer, but I've gotten them down 10 feet.