Need Help with Sewer Gas Problem

[kasey]

Hi Zanne, thanks for what you said, yes, mortgaging the house was tough. Not being able to afford standing up for yourself is a hard one to take but, hey, that's nothing compared to what happened to you and your father. What we've been through is inhumane, what your family went though, I don't have words for. I'm so sorry.

After talking to so many here, and other places recently, hearing all the dangers of sewer gas...thinking back on what we went through when that station went online is so frightening. It's better now, some days we don't have issues or have less issues, but then it's there again, especially when it rains, or is cold, and you feel like crap again, and the situation just goes on and on and on. I try to find a place in my yard to work, dig in the dirt a little, then the damn gas gets me. It makes me so mad. This morning about 10 kids were playing under the bridge next to the lift station. There's a little swimming hole in the creek there, kids have always played there...the station is so much better now but I still worry about them. I went back there yesterday and the odor from the lift station was the same odor that is coming out of our roof vent. The kids tell me they smell dead deer, dead snakes, dead possums...I tell them what they are smelling is the station...I worry about them. I need to find a way to warn their parents.

I have talked to my next door neighbor. He hates the smell too, but he's a bit higher up, and I don't think he's hooked to the station, so his problems are not to the degree ours are.

One of the problems is people here are used to walking through stink on our greenway because of another old lift station down the way. So they walk though the stink of this new one and go on their way. I did that too, for years, back at the old station. I had no idea then what it was like to live in the conditions and not be able to just walk through it. I feel really bad now that I did not report the odor...human nature I guess.

The health department was a bust. No help at all, said they did not get into sewer problems. Referred me back to State, and while the person I talked to talked to me for a long time, he was not real concerned that the house might be venting for the city system...and he said that methane was not in sewer gas. I read up on methane, and since it's odorless, I guess the stink coming out the pipe must be H2S. But methane displaces oxygen and when the odor gets in the house bad my breathing gets shallow, so I would think that methane is a component??? Thankfully, I believe we've found just the right plumber to work with. Beyond a house trap, and a back water valve, he suggested separating ourselves completely from the system with a tank of some sort between us and the system...he explained it well, I just get so tired by this time everyday having to deal with everything I have a hard time explaining things. This thing we're in is just exhausting. Please, all of you, if you ever get in a situation combining your city and the most powerful developer in town...run, or get a lawyer right away if you possibly can. I fell too hard too quickly, we had no money, we had to wait till I got well to risk the house to hire an attorney. Sure wish I'd been tougher. I try to be tougher on this end.

Everyone but our lawyer suggests going to the media with this story...I'm beginning to think that might be the best thing to do.

Your Dad sounds like he was a good guy, Zanne. Wish he was here to give me suggestions. I wish you all a meaningful holiday. Kasey

 

[kasey]

John, Zanne, Phish, anyone else reading...

On Friday we took a gas test at the problem area in the basement and when held steady for a couple minutes, right where the pipe and wall meet, the gas detector went to high and stayed there. (Zanne, we did take a photo and may use your you tube idea.) This was without any rain or weather pressure, and we still got the reading. We then took a wax toilet ring, cut it, and placed it around the pipe pressing it against the wall to seal. We have taken readings two or three times a day since and the gas meter doesn't register anything at all. I can tell a difference in the house because my breathing is much deeper, and my husband is not coughing as much or hacking stuff up all night...sorry TMI. We continue to check everywhere we can outside the house in the area where the pipe exits, all the drains, the soil, etc. and we get no reading on the meter. We're going to continue to check several times daily until we find a permanent solution to everything. We're trying to protect ourselves as best we can right now.

Also, on Friday, we put a five foot pvc pipe extension on the plumbing vent on the roof...this still did not clear the roof ridge but got close. Immediately the odor transferred to another part of the yard, and went right down and through our open basement...as the wind changed direction the odor came down in different areas...no great help, just transferred the problem. But it did show what we've been dealing with, and it did allowed us to clean a portion of the yard that I was having to wear a gas mask to work in otherwise. We're going to try a ten foot extension next, to see if that will help until we can get a permanent fix.

Now that we know these problems exist, the attorney says we have to verify.

What I'm learning is that this problem is rare enough that a lot of local plumbers don't even know this can happen on municipal sewers--most of the time this problem comes with septic tanks but then it's just your stink. What we've got is gas, and not just ours. I've found enough instances on the net, and talked to enough experts, including those here, that know it can and does happen. What we need to know now is just what type of professional we need to get this verified...our plumber is going to be great to work with but he does not have the diagnostic equipment to verify the problem. As I said, the health department cannot help us. I'm not going to wait to see if the State will. The City is in protective mode, the City administrator told me so himself...he said it is his job to protect the City so I'm not going to waste time there. They have the diagnostic tool we need, I saw them with them, but said they could not come in the house to check. Back when there was no odor control at all, the City told me they had no detection equipment. Maybe they didn't then, I don't know. I am going to call some neighboring cities to see if I can borrow a detector. We have very little money to use, our house is mortgaged, we need to get this right the first time. So, please, pretty please, if you know the type of professional we need to get this verified, I would appreciate you offering me your suggestions. I aim to find one on Tuesday. The seriousness of what we've been living in has set in. Not only were we getting sewer odor from the new lift station, the force main vent, the manhole in our creek, but it was right now top of us all the time--it is the only thing that explains our crazy, absolutely awful, scary, life stealing experience. My goal is to have normal life again by the time the new grandbaby gets here. It's hard leaving home with one baby...don't know that I could handle it with two. Hope to hear your suggestions. Also hope you're all having a wonderful weekend with no stink at your homes. Thanks, Kasey

 

[chukar]

Not directly related to fixing your issue, but back home the venting rules changed so all houses require a 3" vent from sewer to top of vent exiting to outside air. The idea wad not based. On sewer gas but rather they found using the big hydro jetting equipment in the subdivisions were blowing out trap seals as the sewer was under vented.

So since 2006 all the new rules have been in effect.

If you put in a yard trap make sure you put in clean outs on both sides of the trap, it can be hard to snake or jet through a yard trap.

 

[kasey]

Thank you Chukar, we'll keep that in mind. It scares me to even think about them ever cleaning these lines.

Extending our roof vent five feet helped on the front porch but made the back deck much worse. We're putting an eight foot pipe on today to try that to see if we can get the gas further away from the house. Any higher and we worry about the wind taking it down. But extending the vent has shown us how bad this problem is. The smell is the same coming from the pipe, as coming from the station in back. That old saying, coming at us both sides and the middle, is quite accurate here.

Today has been hard for me. Realizing what we've been under these last 15 months or so, I think my husband and I are lucky to be alive. I knew it was very serious, even before we knew about the roof and basement. We've had our family here. Gives me chills to think about.

If any of you know any wastewater/sewer engineers, please email me if they are willing to discuss our problem. When this is over I will publicly
acknowledge anybody that helps that wants me to. Thanks, Kasey

 

[Zanne]

I wonder if it is possible to put some sort of charcoal filter or something on top of the vent pipe that would still allow the gases out but might neutralize odor. Anyone know if such a thing exists?

I wonder if you could find a lawyer to help you pro bono.

As for the city being in protective mode, I suggest that you mention to them that you are a taxpaying citizen and resident of the city and that you are part of said city and that they are not protecting you or your neighbors or the children at that school; therefor they are not really protecting the well-being of the city. If they were really protecting the city they would fix the problem before someone dies or gets seriously ill.

Was the person from Department of Healthy from the city? Or county? I think you should ask plumbers if they know who you can contact higher up the food chain. It's a pity you couldn't find a lawyer who would take your case pro bono. I do think it really sucks when a larger entity with more money screws someone over and the person can't afford to fight it legally.

Thank you for your sympathy with what happened to my father. It wasn't even a city issue. We transferred overseas and leased the house to people who are now our neighbors. While we were gone the tenants did over $60k worth of damage to our property. I have a long list of grievances but I'll spare you from that. They were the ones who tore out the vents. I have no idea why they messed stuff up so much. They didn't even pay rent for 5 years but we were stuck overseas with no way to do anything (our lawyer just slacked off and didn't do what he was supposed to). The cops were no help either since the neighbor was a personal friend of the chief of police.

We still haven't repaired all of the damage they did and its been over 10 years. Part of it is because we just haven't made an effort to get some of the minor things fixed and other things keep breaking.

I wish I knew who you could contact, but if the city and board of health won't help, then you might need to go to the local press and if they won't do anything, go a little higher up to a larger paper/news agency perhaps. If other people become aware of the situation it becomes bad PR for the city and people might pressure them to do something. Maybe your lawyer can find out who needs to be contacted.

I really hope that you get this resolved soon.

 

[phishfood]

Kasey, I have done a little asking around. I have been told that the type of specialist you need to contact is a consulting mechanical engineer that does forensic work. Do an indepth interview with prospects, make sure that they are experienced with your type of problem and have managed to get positive resolutions for their prior clients. And probably have your attorney contact them as well, they will probably need to be working closely together.

 

[kasey]

Zanne, there is a filter, but the problem is so bad...you cannot stay by that pipe on the roof...that we need to get the problem seen to first. And, the filter causes enough constriction that if there are any plumbing issues the gas would back up even worse in the house. Our house plumbing is fine, but there seems to be an issue with the incoming pipe the city laid and hooked us up to 25 years ago...

I tried to find a pro bono attorney on the front end of this thing, and after the fact too. No luck at all. Did get some very good advice from them, one talked to me for hours, and I'm amazed at how accurate they all were when I started getting into records and finding facts. I mean just amazed. But no one wants to take on government...after dealing with them, I can see why. But just lately, someone I've talked to about the roof problem suggested an attorney that might help pro bono...I'm going to call to talk to him. I'll let you know what I find out. The affect of the stress of this on my husband just kills me to see, if we could get away from the $250 an hour attorney fee, it would help the stress level. Sewer gas in your home, $250 hr attorney fees, property in disrepair…it’s a hard pill to swallow day after day.

That comment about 'it's my job to protect the city' really got me. Who then protects the citizens? When I first went to them there was no odor control at all. Kids were throwing up on the greenway, and adults were pulling their jackets and coats up over their noses. Since then, they got the little ozone system going and some, what are termed, chemical controls. It's still not enough. Yesterday we put a sign up high on a tree asking citizens to call and report the odor, I'm sure I'll get flack from that but I'm tougher at this point...well, except when I'm not. lol But kids play in a deep place in the creek about 50 feet give or take from that station. I feel better with the sign being there. Should have done it long ago. Most times the city line is that there is no odor, or that the odor is not a health hazard. They have worked on it. The scary thing is I don't know if they know what to do, or if the problem is one that cannot be fixed. A whole lot about this project scares me. I saw way too much.
We have no city health dept. County has one but they don't help in any way with sewer.

"I do think it really sucks when a larger entity with more money screws someone over and the person can't afford to fight it legally." Thanks for that, Zanne. This is exactly what happened to us... I just got the courage to watch the dvd of the public meeting to which there was no public in attendance...there is joking about how much the mayor and developer are worth. Hard to watch when your home is mortgaged for the project they are discussing. Want a copy? Open Records says I can do what I want with it.

Again, so sorry about what happened to your family. To come home to that…sounds just awful. I bet part of the reason you haven't fixed everything is because it can seem so futile to try when people can come and destroy what you have and get away with it. My in-laws are in such a situation. They have a renter who has not paid since first month...a friend, acquaintance thing they got roped into. Now they can't get him to move...he's into them for $4000 and they are in their 80's. And now they have found out he is a sex offender who is not registered. Scary world out there.
I think I'm going to take your advice on the media...might take me a bit to figure out just what.

Phishfood...you might be right on the money with the forensic engineer idea...someone way up in your plumbing chain suggested that very thing a couple days ago, I’d never even heard of such...got no funds for it...hope they take visa!! lol gotta laugh a little or I'll cry a bunch. I'll try to make sure they can help before we hire them. Thanks for this...the double suggestion makes me feel better. You guys have been great. take care, Kasey

 

[Zanne]

Kasey, I really hope you can find a pro bono attorney. From what I understand some cities have ordinances involving odor and they will actually fine people who have strong odors coming from their yards or houses if they do not eliminate the problem after they have been given notice and given time to fix it. You'd think then that the city would have to be held accountable if something they put out is causing a strong odor.

I have some friends who used to work in the news business. I might ask them for tips on the best way to get your problem heard and maybe get some public support. It's too bad there is no smellivision on Youtube, but sometimes Youtube can be good for raising awareness on things.

I'll let you know if my friends have any advice on contacting the media.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and hoping they will do something about it for you.

 

[kasey]

Thanks again, Zanne for the support. This is a roller-coaster but I'm emotional by nature anyway. I'm not as trusting as I was though...hard lesson learned. We are getting more emails of support, just good people asking how we are...most we have never met...it really helps, just as the support here has. It's odd really, now that we realize what the vent is doing it is so easy to see...but we didn't realize it before...that shows what we've been through...God must be watching over us for sure even through the hardest parts of this. I learned a lot more today about the project, and I know tons already so it's a good thing really that we've not gone to the media before, everything I learn just seems like it will help us more when the times comes we'll have the information we need. My intuition has been pretty spot on, I think that is one of the things that got me hurt so much on the front end though, I was really intimidated, they saw it happening and more pressure was applied...that how it seems to me anyway, and I crashed hard...but the time for openness is coming...I hope we go nationwide if not further when we go...please do share anything you find about going to the media, we can use all the help we can get.

If our home is venting for the city sewer...they will be held accountable...if no where else, then in the court of public opinion. Smellivision would be quite perfect in this respect...Thanks, Kasey

 

[kasey]

Question: Our money situation is not good...we may get the City to pay for our problems at some point but I need to protect my family right now...the eight foot pipe on the roof is helping but the odor still comes down near the house. We can't put a filter on it until we get the outside pipe looked at (the one the City ran back in the 80's), because the filter would constrict the odor somewhat and make it back up worse in the house. So my question is, how tall a vent pipe can be used on a roof without it coming down in the wind? And how best to anchor it if a taller one is used? We've got an 8 ft one right now. A really tall pipe would help us a lot, I think.

Zanne, it looking like the media is just what we need to do. Gotta get my big-girl panties on and not be intimidated...sorry...lol, I'm a grandmother...that's about as bad as I get. I do sometimes call the bad guys jack-assess. Actually, learning to cuss, or curse, would be very good for me right now. Kasey.

 

[Zanne]

I have a friend who used to be a director at a news station and she had this to say:

She should call the assignment desk at the news station and explain her situation and then ask which reporter covers those types of stories. Then ask for the reporter to contact her back. You should inform the desk if you have any supporting documents and what steps you've already taken to rectify the situation.

A friend suggested that you should contact them asap (although I would make sure you have all of the documentation ready to show your evidence that the city is the culprit-- which it really sounds like it is).

Now, I don't know how to classify "those types of stories". The media tends to love it when politicians are sticking it to the little people and the people stand up for their rights so hopefully that will appeal to some news group. I don't know if your local news is worried about pissing off the mayor or city. If that is a concern, you might want to take it to an out-of-town news group that serves your general area. You can explain that your funding is limited and you are up to your eyeballs in sewer gas and you've had enough and all you want is some relief from the situation.

Another thing I just thought of is that you might consider making a Facebook page about your problem. Sometimes people do that and it gets more attention and can lead to them getting some help.

You can post photos and information and explain what the whole situation is and what measures you've taken to try to sort the problem out and such.

But be prepared for trolls who will post things like "You stink", "Tits or no 'Like'", and "Why don't you just move?" and junk like that. Ignore people who do that. I think you will find more support from people.

 

[havasu]

Most large television stations have some sort of investigative reporters. Seek them out and let them run with it.