Hydronic Towel Warmee

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Markst

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Hello, I'd like to learn what's involved in connecting this hydronic towel warmer into my system. Maybe I'll do it myself if it's not too involved. The house has hydronic baseboard heaters with 2 zones (one upstairs one downstairs) 1954 construction oil furnace. Water for showers etc, is heated by propane seperate system.

The pipe is copper circumventing house 3/4" pipe. Can this towel warmer be put directly into that system? What kind of fittings are needed? Does it require a seperate zone? Appreciate any help thank you20220711_134203.jpg20220711_134128.jpg20220711_140124.jpg20220711_134128.jpg20220711_134203.jpg20220711_140133.jpg
 

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I guess I'll go 1st-
You should call a plumber.
This site is for professional plumbers to help each other out and answer tough questions we can't figure out on our own. .
I appreciate all the pictures, but I would (personally) never give advice to a homeowner on work this complex. Not cuz 'I should get that money', but because it's dangerous and in many jurisdictions illegal for a layman to mess with their gas/pressurized water system. I would recommend having an experienced boiler tech take a look and give you a quote.
Best of luck with your project,
Tim Whistler

Tim Whistler Plumbing LLC
timwhistlerplumbing.com
 
Actually, this site isn't necessarily for pros helping pros...but I have no patience to teach much plumbing either. But, willing to share tips, like changing washers.
Plumbing Zone is for pro's only.
 
I don't want to go against the grain, but I'll write some basic thoughts, since Trying-And-Learning is good- as long as you don't "try and learn" on electrical, gas or structure. Realize that you're taking the chance to damage expensive components. (Consider what is below to ensure you do not damage your boiler or the circulating pump.)

If you're in the northern hemisphere, this is a good time to experiment & learn. (Summer).

We've installed dozens & dozens of towel warmers and panel radiators over the years in hotels and spas. Only a few were Myson (most Buderus or other) , but the concept & construction are reasonably similar between brands.

The words below may or may not help, depending on your system. This warmer may starve or it may be over-fed, starving the other units. Or it may work beautifully! There is NO shame is trying and calling in a hydronic professional if you can't get satisfactory results. If he or she shames you, dismiss them at once.

I can't teach you here what I've learned over many years, but some basics are outlined below. They're only meant to give you an idea of what your are up against. You'll have to supply much more research & consideration on your own. (it's fun to learn, so why not?)

Some Caveats:
A) Does your system have the BTUs required to add this unit and still maintain design temperature on the coldest days?
How to know? Have a heat loss study done. If you want to try, there are many on-line calculators, but some are way off in results. Complete several & compare the results. It they take 20 minutes to do, it's the wrong one.

B) *** The water may be to hot to be safe for children & elderly. ***
Some manufacturers' units have valves you can install at the unit to try to combat this. Or, you may need to install a tempering valve and pump. The tempering valve mixes return water from near the boiler where it is coolest with the supply water to the towel warmer.

C) The threads on the towel warmer are almost certainly BSP. (British Standard Pipe thread). Your photo looks like BSP.
You will need adapters from a supplier. Check myson.co.uk for what threading the piping terminations are.
One place to check is the catalog at Caleffi.com/germany/de (Hopefully they have an English language version if you are not fluent in German.) They have distributors in the U. S. A. One of them may be able to get you to the correct fittings.

You will need special escutcheons for the floor if the supply & return are the normal 50 mm apart. (Some of your photos didn't display, so I can't tell.) Normal escutcheons are too large diameter to space pipes at 50 mm. Plastic 50 mm are available, but they are ugly. You will want to have them powder coated or plated.

D) Towel warmers generally have very high static pressure. This might cause a myriad of problems. One is starvation, another is pump damage and the most expensive will be boiler damage from low return water temperature.

E) If you have a condensing boiler, please consider paying a hydronic specialist do the work. Any change in the system has the potential to damage the boiler if not done correctly. (i.e. Much tedious adjustment)

Attached is a rough sketch of various piping arrangements:

If yours is Option One Series Loop or Option Three:
You should install this warmer on its own zone. They restrict flow and may starve the down-system units or cause too high of a Delta-T at your boiler, potentially damaging it. (Basically Delta-T means the temperature difference between supply and return water at the boiler) You'd then get involved with bypass loops & a bit more complex piping and testing.

If your system is Option 2 One-Pipe:
Your project is probably DIY. (If you don't have a condensing boiler)
It is identified by finding monoflow tees (sometimes called "Scoop Tees") on the tubing serving the existing radiation units. The circles in the drawing represent the monoflow tees. It does not show balancing valves for fine tuning. One should be on the supply & one in between. Also note to keep the tees at least 30 cm apart. Also note that if the existing units do not have balancing valves, you might end up having to cut them in for every unit served by a monoflow tee. Adding anything to a One-Pipe has the potential to upset your balance.

Option Three :
This has kinda-sorta monoflow tees in the diverter valves. Some are thermostatically controlled in each room. Your system does not have this unless it is 100% panel radiators, panel convectors and/or towel warmers.

Option Four:
The piping will be handled in a similar fashion to Option Two. But instead of monoflow tees, you can use balancing valves on EVERY radiation unit on the zone.

Option Five:
This one is best handled by calling a hydronic professional, not a regular heating contractor. Adding or removing radiation units can upset the balance. The warmer may work, but other rooms may be starved or over-fed. Boiler damage is also possible.

And, I hate to say this because your warmer is stunningly beautiful, you may want to consider an electric towel warmer instead.

If you don't decide to do this yourself, at least studying the system & doing more research will give you some good, fundamental knowledge and make it so you can more easily understand what the hydronic contractor is explaining. And, if there is a middle-of-the-night problem, you'll be better armed to get the heat back going.

Whether you decide to do the project or simply study and learn, be sure to enjoy the project and learning!

I hope the above helps you make an informed decision,
Paul
 

Attachments

  • Basic Piping Schemes.pdf
    148.6 KB
I don't want to go against the grain, but I'll write some basic thoughts, since Trying-And-Learning is good- as long as you don't "try and learn" on electrical, gas or structure. Realize that you're taking the chance to damage expensive components. (Consider what is below to ensure you do not damage your boiler or the circulating pump.)

If you're in the northern hemisphere, this is a good time to experiment & learn. (Summer).

We've installed dozens & dozens of towel warmers and panel radiators over the years in hotels and spas. Only a few were Myson (most Buderus or other) , but the concept & construction are reasonably similar between brands.

The words below may or may not help, depending on your system. This warmer may starve or it may be over-fed, starving the other units. Or it may work beautifully! There is NO shame is trying and calling in a hydronic professional if you can't get satisfactory results. If he or she shames you, dismiss them at once.

I can't teach you here what I've learned over many years, but some basics are outlined below. They're only meant to give you an idea of what your are up against. You'll have to supply much more research & consideration on your own. (it's fun to learn, so why not?)

Some Caveats:
A) Does your system have the BTUs required to add this unit and still maintain design temperature on the coldest days?
How to know? Have a heat loss study done. If you want to try, there are many on-line calculators, but some are way off in results. Complete several & compare the results. It they take 20 minutes to do, it's the wrong one.

B) *** The water may be to hot to be safe for children & elderly. ***
Some manufacturers' units have valves you can install at the unit to try to combat this. Or, you may need to install a tempering valve and pump. The tempering valve mixes return water from near the boiler where it is coolest with the supply water to the towel warmer.

C) The threads on the towel warmer are almost certainly BSP. (British Standard Pipe thread). Your photo looks like BSP.
You will need adapters from a supplier. Check myson.co.uk for what threading the piping terminations are.
One place to check is the catalog at Caleffi.com/germany/de (Hopefully they have an English language version if you are not fluent in German.) They have distributors in the U. S. A. One of them may be able to get you to the correct fittings.

You will need special escutcheons for the floor if the supply & return are the normal 50 mm apart. (Some of your photos didn't display, so I can't tell.) Normal escutcheons are too large diameter to space pipes at 50 mm. Plastic 50 mm are available, but they are ugly. You will want to have them powder coated or plated.

D) Towel warmers generally have very high static pressure. This might cause a myriad of problems. One is starvation, another is pump damage and the most expensive will be boiler damage from low return water temperature.

E) If you have a condensing boiler, please consider paying a hydronic specialist do the work. Any change in the system has the potential to damage the boiler if not done correctly. (i.e. Much tedious adjustment)

Attached is a rough sketch of various piping arrangements:

If yours is Option One Series Loop or Option Three:
You should install this warmer on its own zone. They restrict flow and may starve the down-system units or cause too high of a Delta-T at your boiler, potentially damaging it. (Basically Delta-T means the temperature difference between supply and return water at the boiler) You'd then get involved with bypass loops & a bit more complex piping and testing.

If your system is Option 2 One-Pipe:
Your project is probably DIY. (If you don't have a condensing boiler)
It is identified by finding monoflow tees (sometimes called "Scoop Tees") on the tubing serving the existing radiation units. The circles in the drawing represent the monoflow tees. It does not show balancing valves for fine tuning. One should be on the supply & one in between. Also note to keep the tees at least 30 cm apart. Also note that if the existing units do not have balancing valves, you might end up having to cut them in for every unit served by a monoflow tee. Adding anything to a One-Pipe has the potential to upset your balance.

Option Three :
This has kinda-sorta monoflow tees in the diverter valves. Some are thermostatically controlled in each room. Your system does not have this unless it is 100% panel radiators, panel convectors and/or towel warmers.

Option Four:
The piping will be handled in a similar fashion to Option Two. But instead of monoflow tees, you can use balancing valves on EVERY radiation unit on the zone.

Option Five:
This one is best handled by calling a hydronic professional, not a regular heating contractor. Adding or removing radiation units can upset the balance. The warmer may work, but other rooms may be starved or over-fed. Boiler damage is also possible.

And, I hate to say this because your warmer is stunningly beautiful, you may want to consider an electric towel warmer instead.

If you don't decide to do this yourself, at least studying the system & doing more research will give you some good, fundamental knowledge and make it so you can more easily understand what the hydronic contractor is explaining. And, if there is a middle-of-the-night problem, you'll be better armed to get the heat back going.

Whether you decide to do the project or simply study and learn, be sure to enjoy the project and learning!

I hope the above helps you make an informed decision,
Paul
Thank you very much for that gem. Cheers to continued learning. In this house it looks like option 1 (see pics). All baseboard heaters and no radiators in this zone. Zone 2 has two radiators. I don't know if the boiler is condensing or not yet. In this situation I may do and would enjoy the physical work, but under an expert's tutelage. Always good to know your limits (which is why I'm here in the first place20220712_101129.jpg20220712_102728.jpg20220712_100826.jpg20220712_100820.jpg20220712_101103.jpg
 
Hi Markst,
I couldn't tell for certain from your photos, but if you trace the supply piping from the boiler to the first radiation unit (baseboard) & see that it goes straight into the baseboard's fin tube, then exits the other end of the fin tube and travels to the next unit with no tees, you almost certainly have Option 1. Verify this by taking the cover off of the first baseboard unit & make certain it is not teed in there. (Sometimes this is done, but it's unusual.)

This is sometimes called "Series Loop" and still is often used as it simplifies installation and reduces material costs a bit. If a room's too hot, you control each room's heat with the dampers on the baseboards.

You can try this, but it's a roll of the dice:
I'm not the best explainer, so A "2-Minute Sketch" Is Attached

Find the pipe that leaves the baseboard before the room with the towel warmer. When that pipe passes near the towel warmer room, cut in a monoflow tee & feed the warmer with the branch. Put a balancing valve or ball valve rated for 180-F on the tee's branch to the warmer and the outbound leg of the tee. Now, go at least 12" from that tee's branch and cut in another tee (not monoflow) and branch up to the warmer and the straight leg connects to the existing pipe.

This may or may not heat the warmer well. It will divert some water from the system to the warmer, but let some pass by the warmer in full size pipe. The valves allow you to A) Reduce the water flow to the warmer or B) force more water into it by slightly closing the valve on the bypass.

I'd check the head pressure, in feet of head, for your pump. Then find the pressure drop of the warmer and calculate the drop of your system. This will tellyou if the pump can handle it.

In my home, the 1890's part is series loop (option one). On that zone, I added heat to a bathroom & landing using the above method with a monoflow tees. It works very well & the Taco 007 pump has no problems. But, these were cast iron (low head pressure) baseboards, not towel warmers.

Hope this helps & be sure to enjoy the learning, exploring & doing!
 

Attachments

  • Quick Sketch.pdf
    26.3 KB
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