How to deal with a high toilet flange?

[Twowaxhack]

I put them on the flange. No torch needed for me.

 

[Zanne]

Only advice I can give is to put straws over the flange bolts to make sure you are lining the toilet up properly when lowering it. If you put the wax on the toilet, sometimes it can drop off before you get it in place (had that happen to a friend) so putting it on the flange is probably a better idea. I vote for wax on the flange and then sit on it to make it seal.

I use rust-proof metal washers for shims. Although, I do have some of the plastic wedge-type ones.

I took notes on some of the advice of taping around the toilet to get the layout/perimeter. I need to do that with mine.

 

[JG plumbing]

I got around to returning the toilet. New toilet has no such manufacturing defect (kind of surprising that QC didn't catch it since it's easily observable; doesn't say much for their QC process).

Dry fit toilet and yes, it does rock due to the high flange. I shimmed it to stop the rocking, and taped those shims down. Just need to drop in the wax ring (no horn) and set toilet down.

Do you guys prefer to set the wax ring on the underside of the toilet (maybe heating ring up slightly so that it sticks while you're moving toilet), or sit it down on the flange?

That's how I do it. But I think it's tomatoe tomato

 

[Tom the Elder]

I could not see any advantage to placing the wax ring on the toilet first, but for the paranoid like me there was a possibility of the ring falling loose while placing the toilet, so I put the ring on the flange. If there are advantages to putting the ring on the underside of the toilet I would very much like to know what they are.

 

[JG plumbing]

You start from a place of having your wax ring lined up prefectly with the toilet outlet. When the flange is right you can set it this way and then feel the toilet and wax ring as a unit slide into alignment with the flange.

When you set a toilet with the wax on the flange any kind of "false start" or misalignment on thy way down and your stuck. You could have the wax hanging over the outlet of the toilet and not know it. It a big gob of wax taken out of thy ring becuse the outlet hit it.

When it comes down to it is not that big of a difference. One way you have three independent objects you're trying to align in one motion. The other way you have two.

 

[Zanne]

The alignment thing is part of the reason I like the toilet jack. I line up the holes over the bolts (with sticks/straws) and just slowly lower the toilet back down. I swapped out the regular wheels on it for locking wheels so I it won't move once I have it set where I want it when lowering. But, not everyone wants to invest in one. It's come in very handy for me though.

 

[kovacs]

I put the wax ring on the flange, and placed the bowl (without the tank) down, tightened it down a little bit, then put the tank on the bowl, and I noticed that lifted the front of the bowl up a little (uh-oh). Tightened down the flange bolts a bit more and prayed for the best. No luck, it's leaking. I'm guessing the bowl + tank have to be seated at the same time. @Zanne, a toilet jack would be handy for a lightweight like me for whom positioning a 90lb toilet over the flange bolts isn't easy, but kind of impractical for DIY use.

So I could redo this with a new wax ring and seating bowl+tank together.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if the Fluidmaster Better Than Wax (without the spacer) would work. Yes, even under compression, it will be thicker than wax under compression, but I'm shimming the toilet anyway given the high flange and uneven floor.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You can set the bowl without the tank. Secure the bowl, shim/caulk. Let it dry, then install the tank.

Whatever works for you.

 

[Jeff Handy]

If the bowl moved when you attached the tank, then you did not do proper shimming.
The back of the bowl was not properly supported.
And my opinion of the plastic wedge toilet shims is that they are worthless.
Too clunky and chunky, slippery, hard to work with, tend to squeeze out over time.
Stainless washers of various sizes, or better yet any coins besides pennies, will be flat and stable and easier to work with.
I really think you should cut that distorted flange off and install a new one that fits and seals inside the pipe.
Then no need for shimming, and no chance for that old distorted flange to snap, or for the flange bolts to pop loose.

 

[kovacs]

I pulled the bowl + tank together. Kind of looked like wax seal at the front was compromised by setting the bowl down by itself, but of course even pulling the toilet straight up will distort the wax left on the flange, making this kind of forensic wax analysis sketchy, so who knows.

Cleaned up flange and bottom of bowl. Thought I'd try the Better Than Wax, installed just the blue seal (left out the spacer), set down the bowl + tank. Between the high flange and thickness of the rubber seal, the toilet needed even more shimming, which I did. Still leaks. I can see the ears of the blue rubber seal through the bolt holes in the bowl, meaning the rubber seal is in place and the toilet's horn must be sitting inside it, so I'm not sure how water is getting out. I'm wondering if the soldered seam between the pipe and flange (this flange sits around outside of pipe) has some imperfections.

Any ideas?

I really think you should cut that distorted flange off and install a new one that fits and seals inside the pipe.
Then no need for shimming, and no chance for that old distorted flange to snap, or for the flange bolts to pop loose.

That seemed like a big job, so I was hoping I could just put a wax ring down and be good for years.

But yeah, if I knew I was going to end up spending so much time on this, I would have cut the damn thing off. Still a lot of work, I'd have to cut the flange, break up the mortar(?) around it, cut the pipe down (top of pipe is flush with top of flange) so that new flange sits at correct height, etc. I'm not sure there's even much material underneath the flange to screw a new flange into. The existing flange looks like it's soldered to the outside of the pipe.

With the flanges that fit *inside* the pipe, what is supporting the pipe itself? Just its connection to the waste stack?

 

[Jeff Handy]

I did not originally look carefully at your pics.
I just saw the bolt slot being pulled up and the dark color and thought it was abs plastic.
But it looks like cast iron.
If you cut off the flange, the drain should be able to support itself, but pros on here can advise.
Looks like you have a mortar bed to anchor a new flange into.
With tapcons or masonry anchors and stainless screws.
It looks too complicated for me to properly advise anymore.

 

[Zanne]

I used the Better Than Wax seal for my latest toilet install and it has worked well. Friend used it on his toilet and thus far no leaks. Mine is shimmed-- I will have to check to make sure the plastic shims did not slip.

If shimming and seals didn't work, I think cutting the flange off and replacing it may be the best option. It's going to suck, but it's better than having a toilet that leaks.

The toilet jack was worth it for us because we've used it quite a bit. Friend had to move his toilet several times-- since he suffered a broken arm, wrist, & hand, + fractured vertebrae, it is difficult for him to lift toilets by himself now.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I just looked at the pics again. It looks like the OP may have lead pipe with a brass closet flange.

Op better proceed with caution. What’s below the bathroom ? Crawlspace ?

 

[kovacs]

Once I knew there was a leak, I had cut out some of the drywall ceiling below to find the leak. Not sure what material the drain pipe is, but it's not cast iron. The waste stack is cast iron.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It’s a lead arm that’s wiped onto a brass caulking ferrule. The caulking ferrule is caulked into the cast iron with lead and oakum.

Your situation is not good.

 

[JG plumbing]

Very easy to fix if you want. Cut the pipe at the cast iron. No hub band a piece of pvc onto it. The harest part would be cutting the cast iron, but that's made easy with a diablo blade.

 

[kovacs]

So it turns out there were two leak sources. One was the flange itself as you can see from the wood directly underneath it (which doesn't just look wet, but is wet to the touch), which I'm going to assume was the old wax seal giving up the ghost after some years. But after opening up the drywall directly underneath the lead pipe, I can see there is another source - with every flush, water is escaping from a tiny hole in the pipe itself (below the bathroom subfloor).

Is there a pipe sealing compound that would work for lead pipes?

 

[kovacs]

Or, since it's a lead pipe, can I seal the hole with lead solder for a more durable fix?

 

[Zanne]

That rusty hub looks like it has a crack in it. If it were me, I'd cut that out and replace it with PVC and connect with fernco fittings (or whatever you call those black rubbery fittings with the metal clamp rings).

Is it safe to use a torch in an area like that if it might have sewer gases?
I'm no pro, but I wouldn't get fire near that. They do sell pipe patch tape that you wet and wrap around like bandages, but that is a temporary fix. I think replacing the bad parts would be the best way to go.