Hot Water Recirculation Pump Recommendations

[Mark_Franklin]

Interesting point of view John. When you say that these are not pumps, they are circulators (I assume that is what you meant - not calculators) you say it like that is a bad thing.

Circulation pumps, or circulators, are used in many applications including hotels, apartments and homes. The hp (horsepower) rating is one factor that helps in determining what size pump should be used in a given situation.

The hp rating helps you estimate how much water can be moved, not how fast it can be moved. The rpm rating is a more important factor (but not the only factor) in determining how fast the water will move.

So when I was doing my research on what pump to use, the 1/8 hp, 3600 rpm pump used in the WaterQuick Pro II system stood out.

But more importantly to me is that the 37 homes I have installed them in the San Diego area all but 1 now get hot water in less than 10 seconds. The one that does not get water that fast had a 15 minute wait at the farthest shower from the water heater before I installed the system. They now have about a 15 second wait.

So my customers and I are convinced that they work.

 

[johnjh2o]

Sorry about the miss print. But what I am having a problem understanding is how it gets the hot water to the faucet faster when it doesn't start until you open the faucet. Take your own example with the 15 minute wait for hot water that turns into 15 seconds with the pump. With the flow rate of 2.5 gallons per minute on a 15 minute wait that would be 37.5 gallons of water. That would mean to get the same amount of water to the shower in 15 seconds the flow rate would have to be 150 gallons per minute. Something doesn't seem right to me. Are you sure these pumps don't come on until the faucet is opened?

John

 

[speedbump]

I'm with johnjh2o, something just doesn't add up.

Years ago, I had a 50 foot run from heater to furthest bathroom. Ran a 1/2" copper line back to the bottom of the tank and let it gravity feed. I had instant hot water, and no added electrical. I did have to insulate the hot water pipes and the return. The temp change was enough to keep it circulating and the added electric to keep the Water Heater up to temp was hardly noticeable.

 

[Mark_Franklin]

John sorry about not being clear on how to operate the system. The way it works is turn on a hot water faucet and then turn it off. Wait about 10 second for the pump and Bridge Valve to do their job and you will have hot water where you need it.

Turning on the faucet is like a light switch - it turns on the pump. Once the pump is on it will continue to run until warm water reaches the Bridge Valve. The cool water in the hot line in returned to the water heater in the cold water line so that no water is wasted down the drain.

I hope that helps.

 

[Mark_Franklin]

Speedbump, I am not sure about where you live but In San Diego years ago electricity (as well as water, sewer and gas) was very cheap. So an increase of 23% wouldn't hardly be noticed. Today that can be a number that people pay attention to.

The idea of conserving is defeated if we exchange saving water for wasting energy. I am sure you have done everything you can to conserve, but if you were deciding on which system to buy today, which one would you pick? The one that saves water but wastes energy (Grundfos Comfort Series) or the one that saves water without wasting energy (WaterQuick Pro II)?

 

[johnjh2o]

John sorry about not being clear on how to operate the system. The way it works is turn on a hot water faucet and then turn it off. Wait about 10 second for the pump and Bridge Valve to do their job and you will have hot water where you need it.

Turning on the faucet is like a light switch - it turns on the pump. Once the pump is on it will continue to run until warm water reaches the Bridge Valve. The cool water in the hot line in returned to the water heater in the cold water line so that no water is wasted down the drain.

I hope that helps.

Your numbers still don't add up. In 10 seconds you would only be able to move less then one gallon through a 1/2" line with water pressure.

I don't think with such a small motor on the pump your using could even come close to that one gallon. As far as the other systems the work on a timer and the same bridge system yours uses. Set the timer according to your needs and it to will turn off when the temperature is reached at the bridge valve. The other advantage to this system is the circulator is located at the heater were there is more likely to be a outlet to plug it into. Rather then under a sink.

Just my opinion.

John

 

[Mark_Franklin]

John, at least we can agree on one thing - installing the pump at the water heater is the best solution. That is where the Grundfos system is installed and that is where the WaterQuick Pro II is installed as well.

However, a point of clarity on the Bridge Valve. When hot water reaches the valve the Grundfos pump does not shut off. The valve closes but the pump continues to run as long as the timer is in the on position.

With the WaterQuick Pro II if there is no water flow because no faucet is open and the valve has closed the pump does shut off and will not come on again until a hot water faucet is turned on.

What I have found is that between the water pressure and a 1/8 hp pump turning at 3600 rpm I can move a lot more than 1 gallon in 10 seconds. How much more depends on things like how many elbows and the quality of the pipes and the soldering at the joints and maybe even the phases of the moon.

But what I really care about is does the product meet or exceed my customers’ expectations. And after 3 more installs this week I now have 40 happy customers.

So even if my numbers don't add up to other people, and I get that a lot when people first hear about this product, I will continue to look for and to sell the best products for my customers. They are more than willing to tell me when I am wrong but so far with this product I have had a lot of success.

Mark

 

[speedbump]

Speedbump, I am not sure about where you live but In San Diego years ago electricity (as well as water, sewer and gas) was very cheap. So an increase of 23% wouldn't hardly be noticed. Today that can be a number that people pay attention to.

The idea of conserving is defeated if we exchange saving water for wasting energy. I am sure you have done everything you can to conserve, but if you were deciding on which system to buy today, which one would you pick? The one that saves water but wastes energy (Grundfos Comfort Series) or the one that saves water without wasting energy (WaterQuick Pro II)?

Mark, even though I think you work for this company. Maybe your the CEO. I still don't see how your numbers add up; and I can't see how this thing works. Maybe I have a mental block, but I don't see it working as described. Since your the only one in this thread who seems to know about this product; and it's sort of been hijacked by you. My best guess is that your a plant.

 

[Mark_Franklin]

Speedbump, I can see that you don't understand how this thing works, I get that a lot. I don't understand how electricity makes my toaster work - but because I don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

As I mentioned in my comments above this is a product that my company sells. So yes I am a plant. I am someone that has tried all of the products mentioned in this forum and others as well. This stuff I know very well.

Water well and pump tech stuff questions I'll leave to you.

 

[USMC]

Mark, your system must be braking the law of physics. There's no way you could pass the amount of water through the grundfos-watts comfort valve (thermostatic valve)which your company has renamed as a Bridge Valve. With the little information provided by your companies website I understand that the system is activated by a flow switch connected to the pump. When flow is detected the pump energizes and begins forcing cold water out of the hot water pipes through the thermostatic bridge valves installed at the sinks. I'm sorry but getting hot water in less than 10 seconds through those narrow flex hoses that come with the thermostatic bridge valve is not possible on a typical 30 second wait time regardless of how power strong the pump is. I saw that your site uses "asterick" symbols next to your "Get Hot Water in 10 Seconds or Less*" statements. I was not able to find the reference relating to the asterick. What I can't understand is:
What keeps the pump from running once hot water has been delivered? I see know way for the pump to know hot water has arrived and turn off.
The pumps appear to be the one's sold on Alibaba or from china. But, it's hard to tell since that information is intentionally not provided or hard to find on your site. I only hope that it's not of the cast iron type for your customers health sake, as they appear to be.

Oh, and by the way your toaster works by electricity heating thin wire elements until they glow bright red. Look inside your toaster when making toast, you'll better understand the process. If it's still a mystery, hold you hand about 2 inches above the toaster when it's on, that should help.

 

[speedbump]

Oh, and by the way your toaster works by electricity heating thin wire elements until they glow bright red. Look inside your toaster when making toast, you'll better understand the process. If it's still a mystery, hold you hand about 2 inches above the toaster when it's on, that should help.

After reading this, I almost wet my pants.

Mark must not have read the part where I had a working loop at a home I once owned that used no pump and gave hot water instantly. The light bill went up about as much as it would cost to make two pieces of toast

 

[jwwing]

Hey guys, cool it - this WaterQuick sounds like a really good idea. I can assure you that I had a pump system installed and when I put a timer on it, the amount of electricity that the system used was significantly lowered. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was SIGNIFICANT. I had the same system installed in our current home and put a timer on it right away. Had I seen this one, I would have opted for it - cheaper to install and on-demand use.

The thing I missed on the first pass was that the pump turns on when the pressure in the line drops (the diverter valve must also recognize that the hot water faucet was turned on, too, so it opens) and then the pump stays on until the diverter valve senses 95 degree water and closes, which causes the pump to shut down - clever! It doesn't matter how many runs there are, all you have to do to start the operation is indicate to the system that you are about to use hot water - if you end up not using any, that's ok, too. You can stand a whole bunch of false alarms with minimal expense and you don't have to run the water down the drain forever when the timer is off. Great idea!

speedbump: LOL yes a gravity system is possible, but I doubt seriously that the cost of running water even with a gravity feed is going to be minimal.

 

[speedbump]

speedbump: LOL yes a gravity system is possible, but I doubt seriously that the cost of running water even with a gravity feed is going to be minimal.

It actually was minimal. After the first electric bill when I insulated the pipes.

 

[Mark_Franklin]

USMC thanks for bringing up some valid points. I will address them as best I can.

I’ll explain later in this post why we do not have to violate the laws of physics to do what we do. Believe me when we were in the development process on more than one occasion I wished we could have.

A typical wait time that we see is closer to 2 or 3 minutes but on the ones that have a 30 second wait time after the WaterQuick Pro II is installed the wait is closer to 5 seconds. Having said that we tell potential customers that from an ROI stand point 30 seconds is border line unless convenience is a high priority.

As an example let’s say that there is a 30 second wait for hot water. And let’s use a less efficient aerator with a flow rate of 2.2 gpm. In this scenario 1.1 gallons of water must be moved out of the way so that you will have hot water.

To test how much water can be moved through a1/2” pipe with just city water pressure I turned on the tub spout in my bathroom (a ½” pipe flowing full) and ran it for 10 seconds. I got about 1.4 gallons of water.

So this tells me that if I had a 30 second wait at my tap, if I turn on the tub spout first I will have hot water in about 10 seconds or less (1.1 gal / 1.4 gal x 10 sec = 8 sec). I have still wasted the water but I now have hot water in a shorter period of time.

Add a high speed pump to the equation and the number jumps up dramatically. That is why we can do what we do with the WaterQuick Pro II. No laws of physics have been violated.

I’m sorry that you could not find the comment that the asterisk referred to. It is at the bottom of the page and this is what it says: * 10 seconds or less is a typical result. Your results may vary.

Perhaps I have not posted enough information on my website about the details of how the pump works and where it is manufactured and why we call the “thermostatic valves” Bridge Valves (we feel that it is more descriptive of their function).

In 1995 when I got my first patents on another product we went to Dallas and did a notional trade show. Within 6 weeks there was a knockoff on the market. Yes - I am a little reluctant to post everything on the internet. I will go back and review the content and see what else I feel I can disclose.

As you mentioned in your post the pump is activated by a flow sensor. When the water stops moving the flow sensor turns it off. If the Bridge Valve is closed and there is no demand for hot water there is no place for the water to go and it stops moving. That is when the pump shuts off.

We did use Alibaba as one resource in trying to find the best pump for our system. And yes our pumps are made in China – as are most pumps in the world including many of the Grundfos models. We tried sourcing them in the US first but the only ones we found were originally made in China and sold by an American Company. The cost of the middle man would raise our price by approximately $200 with no added benefit.

The pump is still made in China but instead of adding an extra layer of costs our company gets that margin and the savings is then passed on to the consumer.

Many pump manufacturers such as Grundfos (who also make the Watts Premier – same system, different colors) make pumps for potable water out of cast iron. They then use a process called Electrophoresis to coat the area of the pump that comes in contact with the water.

I don’t know if the coating wears off over time but since we warranty our products for 5 years we don’t want to take the chance. Even though the process is accepted worldwide we have been using low-lead content brass but are migrating to stainless steel with our next shipment. The flow switch will still be made of low-lead brass.

By the way, I now know the meaning of “a slow boat from China”.

Every day when I wake up I realize that someone is going to tell me we can’t do what we do. I get that a lot. People should look at any new product with a healthy skepticism.

I once meet a wealthy apartment owner and when I told him about the product I was selling at the time, he told me it would never work. He then told me the name of his company and when I mentioned the fact that this product had been in his units for the last 5 years and his property managers loved it, we had a good laugh.

If it was so apparent that it would work, someone else would have done it years ago. Even though I hear comments every day a sarcastic remark still stings a bit. But if I can convince someone to open their mind a little bit and at least consider the possibility, it is a good day.

And this morning I learned how a toaster works. So I took mine apart to get a closer look and I think I have come up with a better way to make a toaster. Of course, no one will ever believe me.

 

[Mark_Franklin]

It actually was minimal. After the first electric bill when I insulated the pipes.

So how much was it before you insulated the pipes?

The reason that I ask is that most water pipes are hidden in the walls and in older homes they are not insulated.

 

[speedbump]

I don't remember it was in the 70's. I do know that after building that house, every nickel counted, so if it had been much, I would have turned off the valve.

 

[USMC]

When the water stops moving the flow sensor turns it off.

Also means...when water is being used, even if already hot, the pump keeps on running.