High pressure hot water

[bluestang65]

I have a 7 year old hot water tank in a house of the same age. Last Winter, I noticed that after the hot water pipes have had time to cool, the system seems to be pressurized more than usual. When a faucet is turned on, it gives a momentary burst of pressure followed by normal pressure. Any ideas on what's causing this? The tank's valve on top leaks year round even though the over pressurizing seems to happen only in winter. Any thoughts on what I should expect to fix this problem?

 

[Mr_David]

Water expands when it is heated.
In the winter the incoming water is colder therefore expands more when heated.
Expansion tanks are installed near the outlet side of the heater.

 

[bluestang65]

Is the increased pressure cause for alarm? Should I install an expansion chamber to protect the appliances and faucets?
What's the deal with the dripping valve on top of the unit? What's it do and should it be replaced, or is it doing its job?

 

[phishfood]

I am guessing that the dripping valve is an expansion valve that is dripping because of the increase in pressure. Is it attached to the water piping or is it in a fitting into the water heater tank itself?

If it is in fact an expansion valve, the BEST way to fix this is to install an expansion tank. That will take care of the excess pressure, and the water wasted by the dripping valve.

 

[Jasper15]

Its a t&p releif valve (temperature/pressure) It is a saftey device to releive pressure from the tank if it reaches either 210 degree's or 150 psi. Yes you should install an expansion tank.

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello Everyone"

THIS Subject and the replies has REMINDED Me of some of My Posts earlier in
the Year - When I was stating that I was `VERY SURPRISED`that Hot Water Tanks/Cylinders in the United States did NOT have Expansion Vessels fitted to `Take Up` the VOLUME INCREASE of the Expanded Water - During & After
Heating.

I was `INFORMED` that U.S. Specification Hot Water `Tanks`[Cylinders] did NOT need Expansion Vessels - I wrote `At Length` about this being `Strange` to Me - As the BEST way to `Accommodate`the extra VOLUME of the Heated Water is DEFINITELY with an Expansion Vessel.

Without checking back - I have a feeling that my Colleagues who have AGREED that in this situation You SHOULD install an Expansion Vessel - were the SAME Colleagues that INFORMED Me that THESE were NOT necessary on Hot Water Tanks [Cylinders] in the United States !! [?]

While I realise that in THIS instance they are trying to advise You HOW to solve a problem - By suggesting that You Install an Expansion Vessel - I seem to remember that when I was `Debating` the issue of how necessary these Vessels are to a `Well Designed` Hot Water System - THEY would NOT AGREE with Me.

If I remember correctly - again I have NOT checked back - I wrote PAGES of text while `Debating` the Use of these Expansion Vessels !!

It seemed to me at that time that I had `come upon` `Dangerous Practices`
regarding the Design and Installation of Hot Water Tanks [Cylinders] in the U.S. - And I wondered WHY Expansion Vessels were NOT used on Hot Water in the U.S. ??

I DID receive some answers - basically stating that as the Hot Water Tanks are so `Strongly Made`/ `Robust` that they CAN `Take Up` the Additional Volume and Pressure of the Expanded Water.
I would `View` this as an `Archaic` Design.

I MAY Post a section of some of my previous Text regarding THIS subject - to try to `illicit` some replies to the ABOVE points.

TO `SUM UP` :

When I was suggesting that the answer to a particular Post was that the Expansion Vessel had either lost its charge OR needed renewing - I was told that Expansion Vessels are NOT used on Hot Water Tanks [Cylinders] in the U.S.

I then `Questioned this - regarding WHERE was the extra VOLUME of the Expanded Water being `Accommodated` ??

I was eventually informed about the `Strongly Built` Steel Tanks [Cylinders] -
being `Strong Enough` to `Take` the Extra Volume & Pressure of the Expanded Water.

During ALL of my `Posts` and the Replies that I received - It was NEVER agreed by any of the `Responders` that these Vessels SHOULD be part of the Design and Installation of Hot Water Tanks - and would be `Much Safer`.

When I wrote that I could not imagine that Expanded Water was allowed to continuously `Drip out`of the Pressure Relief Valve - to `Waste` - I was informed that THIS was `Quite Normal` in some States - Obviously with an Expansion Vessel Installed - THAT would NOT be necessary !

NOW - I have seen my Colleagues write here that Fitting an Expansion Vessel
would be the `BEST` way to solve Your problem with Expanded Water !

IF my Colleagues would like to be reminded of what I am writing about - I will try to `Post` some previous Text on here - Please let me know.


Sorry if this does not help with your Enquiry - but I had to respond to what I saw.

No `Sour Grapes` regarding my comments about what our Colleagues wrote on this subject previously - If you look back into my Posts about Hot Water Expansion - you may see what I am `commenting` about.


"Regards" to Everyone, CHRISM.

 

[Mr_David]

Without checking back.

I believe this is the decussion CHRISM is referring to

what is this called?

 

[Psycho99]

CHRISM:

I did read part of the original post, the only thing that I see that might be giving you a fit is some of the posters said you DON'T need an expansion tank; this only applies to certain circumstances.

 

[Mr_David]

"Without checking back - I have a feeling that my Colleagues who have AGREED that in this situation You SHOULD install an Expansion Vessal - were the SAME Colleagues that INFORMED Me that THESE were NOT necessary on Hot Water Tanks [Cylinders] in the United States !! [?]


That's not what they said

An expansion tank is the best option, no argument there. I even had something about that in my original post that got eaten by the big mean web monster.

There are expansion tanks used sometimes, but for the most part, in normal residential usage, and normal temperatures, are deemed unnecessary.

TO `SUM UP` :

When I was suggesting that the answer to a particular Post was that the Expansion Vessal had either lost its charge OR needed renewing - I was told that Expansion Vessals are NOT used on Hot Water Tanks [Cylinders] in the U.S.

I have gone back and reread the previous discussion several times.I don't recall seeing anyone say that.

In my area the typical water supply pressure could be between 80 to 150 PSI
In the past the expansion of water was accommodated by being relieved back into the supply system as long as the supply did not exceed the limits of the system.
Pressure reducing valves were equipped with a built in bypass to allow excess pressure to back flow back into the supply system.
But with the newer requirements of reduced pressure back flow valves installed on supply systems that this is no longer possible.
In a typical single family home the amount of expansion in a typical system does not require a tank. IF they experience T&P valve opening then a tank maybe the solution.

 

[CHRISM]

Quoted from a reply from Phishfood to one of my Posts in MAY 2010:


05-30-2010, 09:57 PM #7
phishfood
Senior Member


Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 746

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In my experience, it is not the norm for water heaters to have a built in expansion tank. Expansion is relieved either through a relief valve, or through means of an externally mounted expansion tank.

In all new construction cases that I see, check valve arrangments HAVE to be installed between the dwelling and the water main, so obviously, the water main cannot be counted upon to absorb the expansion.

The thermal expansion valve that is at issue in this thread is meant to be the primary expansion relief system. If it were to fail, the backup would be the Temperature and Pressure Relief valve that is also required. It is designed to discharge at a much higher pressure than the thermal expansion valve, and is also designed to release in cases of excessive temperature.

As I noted above, expansion tanks are the best option, but in some areas expansion valves are allowable by code.


Phishfood stated that it is NOT the `Norm` for Hot Water Heaters/Tanks/Cylinders [What I was writing about] to have Expansion Vessels.

 

[CHRISM]

Havasu wrote this in a reply to my Posts on Thermal Expansion of Water:



06-05-2010, 10:03 PM #9
havasu
Moderator




Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: La Verne, California
Posts: 1,644

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I'll give a shot on answering some questions from Chrism. You advised in England, your water heaters heat water to a minimum of 140 degrees, but the recommended temperature setting for the US is between 120 and 140 degrees, and if children are present, 120 degrees should be the maximum. Much of this is due to the stringent water standards and lack of bacteria in city water supplies.

The steel tanks sold in the US are capable of handling 300 PSI, and there is space built into the tops of these tanks for thermal expansion. In addition to the fail safe thermostats, the water heaters must be supplied with a temperature and pressure relief (TPR) valve, and per code, must not be connected to a drain line, because this is an early warning sign of a failure.

Also, with normal boiling point being 212 degrees farenheit (give or take with altitude variances) or 100 degrees celcius, these water heaters fall way short of vaporizing, which reduces the dangers substantially. There are expansion tanks used sometimes, but for the most part, in normal residential usage, and normal temperatures, are deemed unnecessary.

Every hardware store in the United States sell water heaters, primarily for installation by homeowners themselves. I myself have installed in excess of 100 water heaters, and using only common sense, have yet to have a failure or defective installation.



This very helpful reply points to the Fact that Expansion Vessels are NOT the `Norm` on Hot Water Tanks / Cylinders.

 

[CHRISM]

Here is another Phishfood Quote - where He stated that installing an Expansion Vessel WOULD be a good thing:


05-28-2010, 11:15 PM #5
phishfood
Senior Member


Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 746

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An expansion tank is the best option, no argument there. I even had something about that in my original post that got eaten by the big mean web monster.



Above was His comment agreeing that an Expansion Vessel would be a good addition to help with the `Poster`s` problem.

I wanted to show that HE was NOT saying that Hot Water Tanks/Cylinders HAD Expansion Vessels - BUT that the Installation of one would be a way to
achieve a `Fix` of the Posters problem [plus I hope a new Pressure Relief Valve]

Does the fact that THIS `Retrofitting` of Expansion Vessels seems to be `Necessary` in a number of Hot Water Tank/Cylinder Installations suggest that Hot Water Tanks designed without them are of a `Poor Design` ??
OBVIOUSLY - I have no idea how many Hot Water Systems have this Thermal Expansion Problem - out of the Millions [?] Manufactured.

I realise that I have only noticed TWO of these Thermal Expansion of Water `Problems` on here - BUT - IF it is JUST the Pressure Relief Valve that is at Fault on those - WHY are my Colleagues [Now] stating that an Expansion Vessel should [also?] be Installed.

IF these Tanks are the `Norm` - NO Expansion Vessel - WHY are We not recommending that JUST Pressure Relief Valve be renewed ??
IF the Tank did NOT require an Expansion Vessel when Designed and Installed - WHY does it require one NOW ???

I should have `Reviewed` the `Posts` that I had stated did not agree with my statements about Expansion Vessels - before my FIRST POST on this `Problem` - On reflection - I was NOT `contradicted` as much as I had thought that I remembered - "My Apologies".


"Regards", CHRISM.

 

[CHRISM]

When I wrote that no-one Agreed with my statements that ALL `Well Designed` Hot Water Tanks/Cylinders/ Systems should have an Expansion Tank to `Accept` the Increased Volume of the Heated Water - THAT is what happened - No-one replied stating that they `AGREED`.

Although I know that my `Posts` - particularly on the previous `What Is This`
are VERY Long / Detailed - I am not expecting that anyone go back and look
for `Word for Word` statements - I had mentioned that I had NOT `checked back` into my previous Posts.

I was `regretfully` writing about what I THOUGHT I remembered - the `Point Blank` refusal to agree that Expansion Vessels SHOULD form part of the Design and Installation of a Hot Water Tank/Cylinder/System.

I will NOT be referring to previous `Posts` ever again without reviewing them first !!

IF my Colleagues DO agree that the `Retrofitting` of these Vessels IS an `Improvement` to the Hot Water Systems in question on this Forum - WHY would they NOT agree that a Vessel SHOULD be part of the Installation on these Hot Water Tanks / Cylinders ???

I have been informed that the `Previous Practice`of allowing Thermal Expansion back into the Water Main Supply has been `Outlawed` - `Prohibited` in the U.S.A. [Or Most of ?] - "Quite Rightly" - NOW I suggest that in those circumstances
ALL Homes Hot Water Systems WILL require an Expansion Vessel.

The `Practice` of allowing Expanded Water Volume/Pressure to `Dissipate` into the Public Water System is
`Deplorable` !! - and should NEVER have been allowed.
The requirements for `Back Flow Prevention` [Better Late than Never] - and the REASONS for those `Codes`/Regulations SHOW why the allowing of `Back Flow`/ Expansion into the Public Water System was an
`Archaic`/ `Ill Advised` scenario !!

IF JUST a `FIX` is required - WHY NOT just `Fix` the Pressure Relief Valve by REPLACING IT ??

The answer is that the VOLUME of Thermal Expansion depends upon MORE than just the Incoming Water Temperature/Heated Water Temperature -
`Accommodating` this Additional VOLUME of Water - requires the `Flexibility` of a CORRECTLY SIZED Expansion Vessel.




"Regards to All", CHRISM.

 

[SlowDrip]

Internet plumber fight!

Both of you to your corners and remember the rules: No pipe longer than four feet or larger than two inches in diameter. No hitting below the plumbers crack. Keep everything to code.

 

[phishfood]

Well, ChrisM, I will take a shot at addressing some of your points.

As you have noted, where some means of accommodating thermal expansion is necessary, I have agreed that an expansion tank is the best option. But an thermal expansion relief valve can serve the same purpose, and in fact is allowed in many jurisdictions in the US. (Please note that this is another valve in addition to the temperature and pressure relief valve that is required in ALL cases) While a thermal expansion valve does waste water every time it operates, the prevailing attitude tends to be that people pay for their water, and if they wish to waste their money, that is up to them.

Also, I am not sure how common it is in the UK, but there are a LOT of people that get their water from their own private well. These wells come equipped with a gigantic expansion tank, making a secondary expansion tank on the water heater completely unnecessary. Why should those people who have absolutely no need for an expansion tank on the water heater have to buy them as part of their water heater? Where they are needed, they can be added in rather easily. And, if the tank were to fail, they are really easy to replace. I don't have personal experience with repairing one of the onboard expansion vessels that you mention, but it seems like it might be a little more difficult to replace.

IF JUST a `FIX` is required - WHY NOT just `Fix` the Pressure Relief Valve by REPLACING IT ??

That could be done. But as I have already said, an expansion tank is the best way to fix the problem, and when asked for advice, my default is to tell people the best fix for the problem.

Also, it sounded to me as though the original poster's water heater installation did not have provisions to pipe the water outside when the relief valve discharged, so in that case an expansion tank would be the easiest fix, as well as the best.

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello Phishfood",

Thanks for your reply - I understand your explanation about people having their own Well Water Supply although I had not given any thought to the
possibility that there would be a Large amount of this type of Water Supply
although after you pointed it out - it is `obvious` because of the VAST size of the U.S.A.

Would there not be a Valve Assembly on the pumped Water Supply into the Home that includes some sort of `Back Flow Preventor` - even as simple as a `Non Return Valve` - I am assuming that there would be `Regulations`to prevent `Reverse Contamination` of the Well Water ??

You mentioned that this type of Supply would have a `GIGANTIC` Expansion Vessel - Is it the case that because of SIZE this would be outside the Home ? BUT would it be `Home side` of the Valve Assembly ?? - regarding it `Taking` any Expansion from the Water Heater via the Water Supply ??

I assume that You would NOT mean an `Accumulator`- as opposed to an Expansion Vessel ?? - I do NOT mean to Offend with this Question.

A Well Water Supply would be in the VAST MINORITY in the U.K. - and although I class myself as `Very Experienced` in Plumbing - I have NEVER worked in an area of the U.K. where people used a Well Water Supply.

Where this type of Supply would be used would have to be a VERY Remote
area - not much of the U.K. could be classed as `Too Remote` to have a Piped Water Supply - as it is a `Small Island` - although large parts of Scotland ARE classed as `Remote` - BUT are still able to receive piped Water Supplies as there are many `Lochs`/ Lakes all over Scotland.

Regarding the `Built on` Expansion Vessels that I have mentioned in the past - Although I HAVE written a lot about Thermal Expansion Vessels - The location of these within the Installation has never been identified:

Primarily the Expansion Vessel on an `Unvented Hot Water Cylinder `[Tank] here in the U.K. is Installed at the TOP of the Water Heater - `Exposed` on a Mounting Bracket - Because of the Diameter of the Cylinder and
the Clearences required [Physically] for Installation of the Unit there should be enough space to make replacement of the Expansion Vessel a `Very Easy` Task.

My point about WHY are We not advising JUST the replacement of the Pressure Relief Valve was NOT suggesting that YOU were NOT giving the Correct / Best Advice - "FAR FROM IT" !! - I was trying to make the point that Expansion Vessals should be part of EVERY `Unvented`/ `Sealed` Hot Water System - Obviously including the Pressure Relief and Temperature Relief Valves.

"Happy Christmas" & New Year.



CHRISM.

 

[phishfood]

The gigantic expansion tank I mentioned is the bladder type tank that every well system has to provide a reservoir of pressurized water. When the pressure drops below a preset point, the pump is turned on and refills the bladder tank. This is nothing more than a really big tank similar in design to a water heater expansion tank.

It is not common practice, at least in my area, to install a backflow prevention device between the house and the well head. It is required that the individual fixtures have backflow prevention built into them as a primary line of defense. Only where a backflow situation could affect multiple residences is it generally required to have the second backflow defense in the form of a main backflow preventor.

It sounds as though the type of expansion vessel you are describing is very similar to the expansion tank that I am familiar with. I had the impression from previous posts of yours that this was something built into the water heater at the manufacturing plant. I was envisioning a very time consuming process should it ever need service.

Best wishes for your holidays,

David

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello David",

Your description of the Gigantic Expansion Tanks Installed on a Well Water Supply - relates to what I mentioned in the Post that You replied to -
These `Tanks` / `Vessels`- ARE called Accumulators - here in the U.K. and in most of Western Europe.
You described the Use of these for the Water Supply from a Well - and stated how/why they are used
on that type of application.

Perhaps the term `Accumulator` is NOT used in the U.S. for these - BUT - as the `Main` use for them is
to Supply an `Enhanced` Volume of Water - over what can be Supplied from a `Normal` [Volume] Incoming Water Supply - they are NOT `Expansion Tanks` / Vessels - Even though they have a `Membrane` which does
`Move` to Accommodate the Ingress of the `Stored` Water and has Pressure behind it.

Water VOLUME is `Built up` within these Accumulators to provide `Good` Pressure and VOLUME to the Home or wherever they are Installed.
The `Gigantic` Size is to Accommodate a Large Volume of Water - when connected to an Incoming Water Supply the `Domestic` pipework can be configured to Supply `Much more` Volume than the `Incoming Main` can supply.

Here in the U.K. - The Incoming Main Water Supply can for example provide 14 Litres per Minute - Our `Old` Water Distribution Mains [in general] cannot `Take` High Pressures and our `Incoming Mains pipework is `Small Bore` - The Supply `Out of` the Accumulator could be 35 - 40 Litres per Minute.
I realise that these Volumes are `Pathetic` in comparison with those in the U.S. - from what I have read [?].

These are `Mainly` Installed in the U.K. where it is not `Cost Effective`to Upgrade the Size of the Incoming Water Supply - to give a much better Volume/Flow of Water around the Home.

The `Suitability` of Installation of these here in the U.K. can depend upon whether the Water Main Pressure does allow the Water to be `Accumulated` within the `Vessel` - AND how much `Draw off` exists relating to the `Dissipating` of the `Stored` Volume`& Pressure.

I can only assume that what You describe are the `Same` as would be Installed here in the U.K. and in Europe - ?? - BUT - as this may NOT be the case - it would be interesting to get Information from an Installer of these `Accumulators` in the U.S.

I would need to see a Diagram of the Pipework / Valve Arrangement to be `Sure` - BUT - I doubt whether these `Accumulators` would act as a Thermal Expansion Vessel for the increase in Volume produced by the Heating of the Domestic Hot Water.

The MAIN Benefit of these Accumulators is that as well as `Good Pressure` - they allow MUCH Higher VOLUMES of Water to be used than what would be supplied with a `Normal` Piped Water Supply.
Obviously the Volume of Water available for Use is also dependant on the Pipe Sizes within the Building.

If `Accumulator` is NOT what this type of Vessel is called in the U.S. [?] - as they ARE `Different` from
an Expansion Vessel - Does anyone know what these are called in the U.S.

As what I describe has uses other than when connected to a Well Water Supply [U.K. & Europe] - Have any of my other U.S. Plumbing Colleagues any Experience of Installing these `Accumulators` [U.K. & European Term]
I am particularly interested in WHETHER these `Accumulators` would be `Appropriate` regarding the `Average` Volume [per minute] of Water Supplied by the Water Authority Incoming Supply - How often would this need to be `Upgraded` ??

As You described one of the Uses of these - I can see that you are aware of them - but in the U.K. they would NOT `accommodate` any Thermal Expansion from heating the water.


I am NOT being `Pedantic` here - an Accumulator [U.K. Term] is NOT the same as an Expansion Vessel - "Please don`t take offence".

Regarding the Expansion Vessels that are `Part of` the Unvented Hot Water Cylinders [Tanks] here in the U.K.
and Western Europe - They are `Fitted` by the Manufacturer - on a Bracket on top of the Cylinder - in some cases they are within a `Casing`- BUT - still `Accessible` to either `Repressurise` or Renew - there are a couple of Manufacturers that supply the Vessel in a separate box for the Installer to `Mount` onto the bracket
and connect up the pipe.



THE NEXT 16 PARAGRAPHS ARE NOT `DIRECTED` AT YOU DAVID:



THIS SUBJECT and previous ones has shown Me that I should NOT be involved on this U.S. Plumbing Forum - I DID Question this in my `Request` to become a Member originally - and I stated that where Definitive Answers on CODES were required I would NOT Post a reply - BUT there have been MANY subjects where MY Answers are `Deemed` to be `Incorrect`- As `Not Required`/ `We Don`t do that`.

My comments about the GAS SAFETY of a Water Heater Installation are a `Case in Point` - Items that Gas Engineers [ I am Fully Qualified in Gas] KNOW to be `Immediately Dangerous`/ `DEADLY` in the U.K. are
`Completely Acceptable` in the U.S. - I have often wondered how many people DIE from Carbon Monoxide Poisoning due to these `Unbelievably Relaxed/ Uneducated Views` - FROM the `CODE WRITERS`and whatever
`Methods` they DON`T USE to Test and Formulate these CODES !!

IF I were on a U.K. Plumbing Forum and a Plumber from the U.S. suggested an answer to a `Problem` that was `BEYOND` the `Norm`/ Regulation Minimum [`Minimum Code`] - I would Congratulate Him[or Her] - I would be pleased to `Know of` a `New`/ Innovative Way to carry out
an Installation - While I would probably tell Him [or Her] that `Our Regulations do not require this` - IF what he suggested was an `Significant`Improvement - I would try to get it introduced into `Code`/ Regulations.

I definitely do NOT want people to think that I expect ANY Plaudits for what I write on this Forum - But - When I am told that whatever I have suggested is `Not Done`/ `Not Required` in the U.S. - I cannot remember anyone ever stating that my suggestion would `Be a Good Idea` - Details that are `Fundamental Plumbing Practice` in the U.K.
`the `Birth Place` of MODERN Plumbing - Post `Industrial Revolution` - I state this to prevent `contradiction`
related to the Romans using Lead `Pipes` to convey Water as being the `Birth of Plumbing`.

My comment about Me being `Unsuitable` for this Forum is NOT because I am being `Contradicted` - I am Qualified TO `Master of Science` in Building Services Engineering - WHAT I write are FACTS - IN THE U.K. - BUT are NOT `Facts` in U.S. Plumbing !!

I have been `Surprised` at the Safety Issues that have appeared - in relation to the Gas Codes/Regulations that apply to Gas Appliances in the U.K. - regarding `LIFE THREATENING` Installations - But nothing even `Similar` applies to the `Same` Installation in the U.S. - To my Example.

I DREAD TO THINK what Differences exist on the VAST ARRAY of GAS CODES/REGULATIONS that SHOULD exist in the U.S. - ??
IF `Potentially Deadly`[U.K.] is `O.K.`/ `Not Known About`/ `Not Considered in Codes` - WHAT ELSE is also `Allowed` in the U.S. Codes relating to `GAS SAFETY` - ??

I have been `Surprised` that `Thermal Expansion` and the Installation of `Unvented`/ Mains Water fed Hot Water Cylinders/Tanks - which in extreme circumstances can cause `Risk to Life` - is treated as a `Do it Yourself` Task - Anyone can Install or `Maintain` this type of Plumbing/Hot Water System. [In the U.S.]
In the U.K. - Because of the `Extreme Danger` of `UnVented Hot Water Systems` - IF Installed Incorrectly - ONLY a Suitably Qualified Plumber - On UnVented Hot Water Systems can Install / Maintain these types of Plumbing System - They MUST have completed `Training & Assessment` - Passing Theory And Practical Exams
and then HAVE TO be Registered as `Qualified in UnVented Hot Water Systems`
These Systems - because they are Potentially Dangerous - Have to be Registered with the Local Authority Building Control Department.

NOTICE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN `REQUIREMENTS` FOR THESE HOT WATER TANK / CYLINDER INSTALLATIONS - U.S. AND U.K. - IN THE U.S. THEY ARE A `DO IT YOURSELF` INSTALL - WITH OR WITHOUT ANY PLUMBING KNOWLEDGE !!


I have been `Surprised` that in previous Posts regarding Drainage - I have had to ARGUE the point that `No connection to the Drainage System should be Unsealed` - That `Clean-outs`[Access Points] should be in the form of a Fitting which can be `Opened` to access the Drain Line or Stack - the Fitting should always be `Sealed` to the Drain Connection or Pipe - with an `Unscrew able` Cap or Plug - or terminated with a `Sealable` - `Screw Down Plate` + Bolts or Machine Screws.
It was being suggested that a `Clean Out` [Access point] did NOT need to be Sealed in place - with all of the `Hygiene` problems that would be associated with allowing possible Methane Gas escape AND Bacteria escape- from Sewerage !!

There are other `Differences` which I will not bother to mention here - AND - I do not doubt that IF I had time to `Research` the U.S. Plumbing Codes / Training Text Books - Gas Codes & Training - and Heating Codes
and Training Text Books - That I would find VAST DIFFERENCES from the U.K. to U.S.

In the example that I have written about regarding the Gas Safety of the Vent Pipe [Flue] - where WE in the U.K. - Gas Engineers - Would condemn as `IMMEDIATELY DANGEROUS` / `POTENTIALLY DEADLY` - I have been `Informed` that the Installation that I `Questioned` was deemed `Perfectly Acceptable`in the U.S. - No Problem at all !! - as if NO -ONE has ever `realised` the Dangers of `Almost Horizontal Gas Vent Pipes` [Flues] !! - Correct Testing of this type of VENT/FLUE CANNOT be being carried out - or the Tests would show
that the `Products of Combustion` were NOT being `Cleared` from the Building.

Because of what I have `noticed` in just a few examples - regarding `Safety` - I cannot imagine that the `Code Writers` worry too much about `Legislating` on `Less Important items`.


Although THIS Will sound like `Sour Grapes`:

Can you imagine how I feel when SOME of the responses that I receive on here are from people who are NOT Plumbers or have `Experience and Knowledge of Plumbing` - I am a `Master of Science` in Building Services Engineering - being contradicted be a DIY [Do It Yourself] Person - apart from where what I have suggested is `Not Required` in the U.S. - to be contradicted on TECHNICAL MATTERS by a `DIY`er` is RIDICULOUS !!

I have the `Greatest Respect` for those amongst Us who have `Learned` aspects of Plumbing through experience and Working within the Industry - I am NOT a person who thinks that ONLY `Fully Qualified Plumbers` know what they are talking about - BUT - In the U.K. - I could not be `contradicted` about Plumbing by a Plumber or anyone else.
I started my career as a Plumber - Fully Qualified - and have operated My Plumbing, Heating & Gas Installation Business for 30 Years.

I am coming to realise that there is `No Point` in Posting Details on here that are `Contradictory` to what is `Done`/ `Known about` in U.S. Plumbing.

DAVID - As a `matter of Interest` - could You [or others] tell Me - What is the `HIGHEST` Building Services Engineering Qualification in the U.S. - ?? Here in the U.K. - It is `Master of Science` - which is MY Highest
`Qualification`.



MY APOLOGIES FOR THIS POST BEING SO LONG - THIS IS `UNLIKELY` TO HAPPEN AGAIN.



"Happy New Year David" to You and your Family.



"Regards", Chris.

 

[havasu]

Let's keep this forum professional folks. Since the answers have been provided, this thread will be locked.