I’ve had many service calls for no hot water end up being a leak under the slab.
it happens.
it happens.
Electric Water Heater doesn't heat - checked everything, puzzling!
- Thread starter pgrillo
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pgrillo
Member
Thank you for that confirmation - I was thinking/hoping that 208-210 was not uncommon.
pgrillo
Member
I think that somebody once said, we always get it right - after exhausting all other possibilities.
So, yes - turning off cold water to tank, waiting and hour, turning it back on produced very hot water ...
Thus it is a leak, one of the first things I heard it may be... I had suggested it to the plumber and he simply said highly unlikely. Perhaps he could have suggested this simple test then.
Unfortunately, it's a 4 room condo on 1st floor with tile and carpeting ... and the problem now is finding the leak. I'm assuming there are companies that may have tools that can locate the leak - this is what I will look into.
I can't thank all of you enough for all of your input, insight and help. You got me to this place, when 2 plumbing companies couldn't figure it out - which is scary.
you've been great!
-paul
So, yes - turning off cold water to tank, waiting and hour, turning it back on produced very hot water ...
Thus it is a leak, one of the first things I heard it may be... I had suggested it to the plumber and he simply said highly unlikely. Perhaps he could have suggested this simple test then.
Unfortunately, it's a 4 room condo on 1st floor with tile and carpeting ... and the problem now is finding the leak. I'm assuming there are companies that may have tools that can locate the leak - this is what I will look into.
I can't thank all of you enough for all of your input, insight and help. You got me to this place, when 2 plumbing companies couldn't figure it out - which is scary.
you've been great!
-paul
Paul, please keep us in the loop as to where the leak was discovered, how it was found, and maybe a few pics of the process to help others who have similar problems who visit our site.
It would heat with low voltage just at a reduced rate. The wattage stamped on the element is if you apply the voltage also stamped on the element.
pgrillo
Member
So, I guess to close on this and much thanks.
I had a leak specialist come out - a nice older gentleman. He determined the leak immediately using @Twowaxhack suggestion to listen for the swoosh, and after only 30 seconds it was quite evident - and indicated a good sized leak.
Using a combination of audio, thermal, sonar and some gadget where he could apply a frequency to the pipe, was able to tape off where the pipe went under the floor and ultimately where the leak was withing about a 2 by 2 foot area.
In retrospect knowing what I know now after getting all of this input. People can feel free to correct what i've said, understanding that there are many other approaches.
Amperage:
I(Amps) = V(Volts)/R(Ohms)
210/14 = 15 Amps.
Then Watts
P(Watts) = V(Volts) * I(Amps)
210*15 = 3150 Watts
If you really want to ensure that amperage is traveling through that element, then use an Amp/Clamp meter and test it while powered up. You should be seeing roughly 15 amps (given above scenario).
If at this point all of this looks good - it means you're heating the water but if you aren't seeing hot water at your faucet - it's leaking out somewhere.
Anywhere along the line you could first test for a leak, though a leak is most unlikely with no hot water.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, turn the cold water off to the heater, ensure all hot water faucets are off, wait a minute or 2, then turn it back on - if you hear a swoosh like water running into the tank, then the tank dropped pressure because there is a leak somewhere.
Or, you could turn the cold water off to the tank, ensure it is powered and wait an hour. If you now get real hot water, then you likely had a leak - and as soon as that hot water dissipates, you'll be back to where you were.
My last thought and comment is that I was surprised (but shouldn't be) that hiring 2 professional plumbing companies could not figure anything out. One said they don't mess with multimeters. Swap elements and thermostats and leave. Yeah, probably that works almost all the time, even though they had no clue which of the 4 items was bad - but the customer is happy. I guess truth is that probably is the least costly approach for the customer anyway. But at least, having done that - have the knowledge to proceed to the next level.
Even after I suggested there may be a leak to the plumber, all I got was "highly unlikely"
Okay, this note was all very long - but maybe in the future this one note might bring a lot of this stuff together and help somebody in the same situation.
Kind regards and much thanks to all that have helped.
I had a leak specialist come out - a nice older gentleman. He determined the leak immediately using @Twowaxhack suggestion to listen for the swoosh, and after only 30 seconds it was quite evident - and indicated a good sized leak.
Using a combination of audio, thermal, sonar and some gadget where he could apply a frequency to the pipe, was able to tape off where the pipe went under the floor and ultimately where the leak was withing about a 2 by 2 foot area.
In retrospect knowing what I know now after getting all of this input. People can feel free to correct what i've said, understanding that there are many other approaches.
- determine that voltage exists ultimately at the element, before wasting time swapping these out. Seems like plumbing companies just swap and that's it. Yeah, probably works in over 90% of the cases, but when it doesnt you end up in a forum
- Many ways to do this, i think this approach worked for me for 2 element system
- Test voltage at the very top of the top before the thermostat and ensure proper voltage, then i skip to the element
- Turn off the power, remove wires on element.
- Test continuity between 2 poles. ensure it exists
- Measure ohms, as well - should not be near 0 (no continuity) and you should see a reading somewhere between 11 and 15
- You might also want to check for a short. One probe on element pole and one on ground - there should be NO continuity
- Do the same for the lower element
- Next ensure voltage exists at each element
- Set temperature of top thermostat all the way up, and the temperature of the bottom thermostat all the way down.
- Test voltage on the upper element. Thermostat should forward voltage to element, you should get a voltage reading
- reverse. Set temp on top thermostat all the way down
- Set temp on bottom thermostat all the way up
- You should get voltage reading on bottom element.
Amperage:
I(Amps) = V(Volts)/R(Ohms)
210/14 = 15 Amps.
Then Watts
P(Watts) = V(Volts) * I(Amps)
210*15 = 3150 Watts
If you really want to ensure that amperage is traveling through that element, then use an Amp/Clamp meter and test it while powered up. You should be seeing roughly 15 amps (given above scenario).
If at this point all of this looks good - it means you're heating the water but if you aren't seeing hot water at your faucet - it's leaking out somewhere.
Anywhere along the line you could first test for a leak, though a leak is most unlikely with no hot water.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, turn the cold water off to the heater, ensure all hot water faucets are off, wait a minute or 2, then turn it back on - if you hear a swoosh like water running into the tank, then the tank dropped pressure because there is a leak somewhere.
Or, you could turn the cold water off to the tank, ensure it is powered and wait an hour. If you now get real hot water, then you likely had a leak - and as soon as that hot water dissipates, you'll be back to where you were.
My last thought and comment is that I was surprised (but shouldn't be) that hiring 2 professional plumbing companies could not figure anything out. One said they don't mess with multimeters. Swap elements and thermostats and leave. Yeah, probably that works almost all the time, even though they had no clue which of the 4 items was bad - but the customer is happy. I guess truth is that probably is the least costly approach for the customer anyway. But at least, having done that - have the knowledge to proceed to the next level.
Even after I suggested there may be a leak to the plumber, all I got was "highly unlikely"
Okay, this note was all very long - but maybe in the future this one note might bring a lot of this stuff together and help somebody in the same situation.
Kind regards and much thanks to all that have helped.
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Didn't you notice abnormally high water or electrical usage? It's too bad it took so long to troubleshoot it, but I'm still confused about only 210 volts! I'm a retired mechanic, and once an apprentice gave me a nice compliment, he said, "Your a mechanic, not just a parts changer"
I’m not bragging but I would’ve had your problem diagnosed within 10 minutes of being in front of your water heater.
pgrillo
Member
hey, brag away, I'm sure you would, totally!
I never even saw a water heater 4 days ago. I'm shocked at plumbers inability to find the problem. I think now I would be able to find the issue quickly, but only after learning from all of you.
Just a thought
remember any leak under the floor in the condo is the condos association's responsibility, not yours.
remember any leak under the floor in the condo is the condos association's responsibility, not yours.
pgrillo
Member
Well, would like to think that - but it is condo dependent. I was told by the association that their responsibility ends at the point in which the cold water enters the condo, at that shutoff ....
I'm trying to get a copy of the condo docs to confirm that and guessing the insurance company will confirm too.
thanks for the thought, appreciate it.
wpns
Well-Known Member
So there’s power going into the tank, which means it’s heating the water, so that’s good. Are the fittings on the tank hot to the touch? You could have a leak, but there are some other diagnostic steps you could take. I would: Close the outlet valve and crank both thermostats to their maximum. Check with your voltmeter when each section turns off (and confirm with your ammeter that each element is drawing current when there’s voltage applied). How long does that take? Now open the outlet valve, do you hear water rushing to fill the pipes? If so, you _may_ have a leak. Run the hot water at every sink or shower one at a time and see if you get hot water. Try turning off hot and cold shutoff valves at sinks, toilets, clothes washers, anything that uses water for a day and see if the issue disappears.
A couple of followup questions:
Do you have a hot water recirculation system? Any specialty connections? For instance, some places with high humidity connect toilets to the hot water supply to reduce condensation. Any temperature-control devices (anti-scald, etc) installed anywhere? Touch-sensitive faucets without backflow preventers? Shower valves left in the “warm” position with the output turned off by some other valve?
Did the plumbers who replaced your heating elements and thermostats check the dip tube on the cold water inlet? If that broke off, it might cause your problem.
May not be related, but did they check the anode?
wpns
Well-Known Member
As much of a pain as it might be to dig up part of your floor, determine what caused the leak and if that pipe is likely to have other similar issues in the near future. It _might_ be worth replacing the whole thing now and avoid disruption in the future. 
Also check with your insurance company.
Also check with your insurance company.
rickwhoo
Well-Known Member
Under the floor is theirs... I had a pipe banging inside a wall and made the HOA repair it. You are only responsible for the living space, not under it.
wpns
Well-Known Member
It would have taken me a few hours, but IANAP. 8*) The two plumbers you hired before should be in a different line of work.
wpns
Well-Known Member
Entirely depends on your condo association and the legal paperwork you all signed. Every condo association will be different in some way.
pgrillo
Member
Right, I checked the docs. They refer to their responsibility as common elements. When it comes to piping, it must also serve another unit. So for example a drainage pipe between floors that is shared is common.
Incoming water pipe is yours at the unit incoming shutoff. Pipes running from there to your appliances are yours, which obviously includes hot water.
Incoming water pipe is yours at the unit incoming shutoff. Pipes running from there to your appliances are yours, which obviously includes hot water.
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[But all="wpns, post: 165660, member: 28101"]
Entirely depends on your condo association and the legal paperwork you all signed. Every condo association will be different in some way.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, they differ somewhat, but a condo has common elements owned and maintained by the "condo association" (no matter what it's called), while the residential or commercial units typically own the space from top of floor to bottom of ceiling, and sheetrock (or paint film on the rock) walls.
UTILITIES such as water supply pipes, waste water pipes, electrical wiring, gas lines, etc., that are outside the units' boundaries are owned & maintained as common elements.
Leak of a supply line, that's located in the slab - is a common element - repair is Condo's responsibility. They carry insurance for such problems, or, they self-insure. Why else do they collect monthly condo fee except to maintain and repair problems like yours.
.....Unless board members are lining their pockets with that money. << Shrug >>
Entirely depends on your condo association and the legal paperwork you all signed. Every condo association will be different in some way.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, they differ somewhat, but a condo has common elements owned and maintained by the "condo association" (no matter what it's called), while the residential or commercial units typically own the space from top of floor to bottom of ceiling, and sheetrock (or paint film on the rock) walls.
UTILITIES such as water supply pipes, waste water pipes, electrical wiring, gas lines, etc., that are outside the units' boundaries are owned & maintained as common elements.
Leak of a supply line, that's located in the slab - is a common element - repair is Condo's responsibility. They carry insurance for such problems, or, they self-insure. Why else do they collect monthly condo fee except to maintain and repair problems like yours.
.....Unless board members are lining their pockets with that money. << Shrug >>
wpns
Well-Known Member
Just curious why you think this is a universal truth? Unless your condo association in Delaware and the OPs condo association in Florida have something in common, his rules and governance might have nothing to do with yours.
pgrillo
Member
You are quite right.
Rules do differ from condo to condo.
Take a look at the attachment, an excerpt from mine b, c, and d. One can't make an assumption that they're is a universal condo association responsibility. This is clear.. the pipe can be anywhere, even plainly in sight in your unit. If it serves more than your unit, it's common, else you own it. Location has nothing to do with it.
