Caulked a joint for the first time

[oakumboakum]

As I posted in a previous message, after removing all the cast iron hub and spigot pipe and fittings, I cut out a few of the hubs and cleaned them with engine degreaser. I wanted to pour molten lead into the hubs both vertically and horizontally. I bought oakum, a 5 pound lead ingot, 6 inches of 3" cast iron pipe, a 1100 watt hot plate, and a Lee mold tray. I melted the 5 pound ingot in an old skillet with the hot plate and made 5 1 lb bars with the Lee mold tray. I used a 3/4" screwdriver to pack as much oakum between the hub and pipe as I could. I packed to about 1" below the top of the hub. I then melted 3 of the 1 lb bars of lead and poured the molten lead into the joint. There was enough molten lead left in the skillet to one 1 lb bar. I used a smaller screwdriver and tapped the middle, inside, and outside of the lead with a hammer. I finally poured a few gallons of water all around the inside of the pipe and checked for leaks at the lead seal. I saw none. I'm going to buy a joint runner next and try pouring a horizontal joint. Here are some pictures I took.

 

[johnjh2o]

Doesn't look bad considering you used a screwdriver for packing irons. When I was first learning the trade from a old timer he had a set of packing irons with his initials on them. That way he signed each joint.

John

 

[oakumboakum]

Thanks for the kind words John. Being retired and living on a fixed income, I have to budget just to buy the lead, oakum, pipe, etc. I can't afford to buy the yarning irons you pros use to caulk cast iron joints. If any of you retired plumbers want to sell your joint runner, let me know.

 

[johnjh2o]

All you need for a joint runner is a heavy piece of rope. Soak it in oil then let it dry out. Any type of metal clamp will work to hold it in place while your pouring the joint.

John

 

[phishfood]

Thanks for the narrative and the pictures. Lead joints are pretty much a dead part of the trade, at least in this area. Interesting to see it done.

Just curious, what is your reason for doing this?

 

[oakumboakum]

phisfood,

I just wanted to see if I could do it. Maybe I'll replace some cast iron hub and spigot pipe and fittings for friends in the future. They'll be surprised when I pour lead to seal the pipe and fittings.

 

[oakumboakum]

John,

What kind of oil should I use to soak the rope in?

Thank you

 

[johnjh2o]

Motor oil. We used to soak are joint runners in old oil we drained from our trucks. Soak it for a day then wipe off any excess and you'll be good to go.

John

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello oakumboakum",

Well Done on your First Attempt at a Lead Caulked Joint - A nice looking job done with improvised use of tools etc.

I am ONLY mentioning this because You stated that You might want to actually replace Joints for Friends in the Future:

If You were Installing a Lead Joint on Drainage it would have to be `Air Tight` - That is a completely different matter to a Joint that looks good / will not leak Water.

Drainage Joints need to be Air Tight to prevent any escape of Methane Gas / Bacteria / Smells [Bacteria etc.] from the Drainage System.

The difference being that You would then have to use exactly the correct method of `Yarning` the Joint - using the correct Yarn / Yarning Tools - And with a Poured Lead Joint the Temperature of the Lead can be Crucial regarding Caulking the Joint - which must be done while the Lead is still Hot in the Joint - And using the Correct Caulking `Irons`.

Even then I have often seen experienced Plumbers have to `Attend to the Air / Water Leaks` after Testing had been done - they would rectify these Leaks by Re-Caulking the Joints - perhaps using some Lead Wool - although doing this when the Lead is `Cold` is NOT always an easy task !

I am definitely NOT trying to discourage You - But there is a BIG Difference to what you have just done to a Correctly Caulked / Air Tight Lead Joint.

Lead Joints CAN be `Cold Caulked` using `Lead Wool` - But this has to be done in a Layering Method and CAN be VERY `Hit & Miss` [ U.K. saying] regarding whether the Joint becomes Air Tight - Regarding being suitable for a Drainage Joint.

Please take these comments as they are meant - I am just trying to make You aware of the Facts about actually Installing these Joints in Drainage / Soil & Waste Water Stacks etc.

CHRISM

 

[johnjh2o]

"Hello oakumboakum",

Well Done on your First Attempt at a Lead Caulked Joint - A nice looking job done with improvised use of tools etc.

I am ONLY mentioning this because You stated that You might want to actually replace Joints for Friends in the Future:

If You were Installing a Lead Joint on Drainage it would have to be `Air Tight` - That is a completely different matter to a Joint that looks good / will not leak Water.

Drainage Joints need to be Air Tight to prevent any escape of Methane Gas / Bacteria / Smells [Bacteria etc.] from the Drainage System.

The difference being that You would then have to use exactly the correct method of `Yarning` the Joint - using the correct Yarn / Yarning Tools - And with a Poured Lead Joint the Temperature of the Lead can be Crucial regarding Caulking the Joint - which must be done while the Lead is still Hot in the Joint - And using the Correct Caulking `Irons`.

Even then I have often seen experienced Plumbers have to `Attend to the Air / Water Leaks` after Testing had been done - they would rectify these Leaks by Re-Caulking the Joints - perhaps using some Lead Wool - although doing this when the Lead is `Cold` is NOT always an easy task !

I am definitely NOT trying to discourage You - But there is a BIG Difference to what you have just done to a Correctly Caulked / Air Tight Lead Joint.

Lead Joints CAN be `Cold Caulked` using `Lead Wool` - But this has to be done in a Layering Method and CAN be VERY `Hit & Miss` [ U.K. saying] regarding whether the Joint becomes Air Tight - Regarding being suitable for a Drainage Joint.

Please take these comments as they are meant - I am just trying to make You aware of the Facts about actually Installing these Joints in Drainage / Soil & Waste Water Stacks etc.

CHRISM

Don't take this the wrong way but I see no difference in caulking a cold joint as apposed to a hot one. It was common practice to pour several joints then go back and caulk them.

John

 

[oakumboakum]

Thank you Chrism. I guess you could say "Don't give up your day job." I am just experimenting around and will probably buy a Bernzomatic torch with MAPP gas next and melt the lead with it. I'll see if I get different results. There are always plumbing contractors at the plumbing supply store and I might pay one to show me how to caulk a joint correctly with the correct tools. In the videos I have seen of plumbers caulking a joint with lead, the plumbers pour the lead but they don't tap the lead with tools. I suppose they go back later but isn't the lead already hard and formed for their tools to shape the lead?

 

[CHRISM]

Thank you Chrism. I guess you could say "Don't give up your day job." I am just experimenting around and will probably buy a Bernzomatic torch with MAPP gas next and melt the lead with it. I'll see if I get different results. There are always plumbing contractors at the plumbing supply store and I might pay one to show me how to caulk a joint correctly with the correct tools. In the videos I have seen of plumbers caulking a joint with lead, the plumbers pour the lead but they don't tap the lead with tools. I suppose they go back later but isn't the lead already hard and formed for their tools to shape the lead?

"Hello Again",

The Poured Lead Joints should be Caulked with the Correct Sized `Irons` while the Lead is still Hot / Warm - In fact when Installing Cast Iron Drainage or Cast Iron Soil Stacks etc. the Joints should only be Poured a couple at a time in order to be able to Caulk them while still `Hot` - If the Temperature is really low - Only One Poured Joint at a Time and then Caulk it Immediately.

In really Cold Temperatures it is often required to Keep Heating the Collar of a Joint with a Large Flame Blow Torch while the Lead Pouring Process is being carried out.

One reason for this is that it would be a VERY BAD THING to Pour Hot Molten Lead into an Ice Cold Cast Iron Collar / Joint - Because the Thermal Shock of the Cold Metal Pipe and Collar would cause the Molten Lead to `Explode` out of the Joint - `Flying` Molten Lead - VERY DANGEROUS !

Another reason for Heating the Joint Collar is to enable the Lead to be Caulked Down before it gets Cooled Down by the Cold Temperatures.

Caulking the Joint forces the Lead to Spread Down AND slightly `Out` into the shape of the Collar taking up any slight defects etc. in the Casting.

If this is NOT done when the Lead is `Hot` it is very likely that the Joint would NOT be `Air Tight` - Which for an above Ground Drainage Connection or on the Joints of a Soil Stack / Waste Water Stack could cause problems with `Smells` from the Drains - which usually indicate the escape of either Methane Gas / or Bacteria.

A Joint that is NOT Caulked when the Lead is Hot can often `Hold Water` but NOT Air / Gases.


Regards,


CHRISM

 

[CHRISM]

Don't take this the wrong way but I see no difference in caulking a cold joint as apposed to a hot one. It was common practice to pour several joints then go back and caulk them.

John

"Hello John",

The difference is that when the Lead is `Hot` in the Collar of the Joint it will `Move` better when Caulked with the Irons - It is obviously `More Malleable` when Hot and will Spread slightly packing more into any defect in the Casting.

Even though the Lead has been Poured into the Joint Collar - which We could basically look at as a `Mould` there is still the possibility of slight defects causing the Joint NOT to be Air Tight - Caulking the Lead while still Hot does enable it to `Move` into the Joint / Defects in the Collar and Pipe Wall.

Caulking these Joints when they have cooled down is usually `O.K.` if they just have to `Hold Water` - But even then I have often seen Plumbers have Problems with Joints at the Testing Process.

CHRISM

 

[johnjh2o]

"Hello John",

The difference is that when the Lead is `Hot` in the Collar of the Joint it will `Move` better when Caulked with the Irons - It is obviously `More Malleable` when Hot and will Spread slightly packing more into any defect in the Casting.

Even though the Lead has been Poured into the Joint Collar - which We could basically look at as a `Mould` there is still the possibility of slight defects causing the Joint NOT to be Air Tight - Caulking the Lead while still Hot does enable it to `Move` into the Joint / Defects in the Collar and Pipe Wall.

Caulking these Joints when they have cooled down is usually `O.K.` if they just have to `Hold Water` - But even then I have often seen Plumbers have Problems with Joints at the Testing Process.

CHRISM

The proper installation of the oakum is the main thing that seals a cast iron joints. If not done properly no amount of caulking done to the lead will make the joint air or water tight.

John

 

[CHRISM]

The proper installation of the oakum is the main thing that seals a cast iron joints. If not done properly no amount of caulking done to the lead will make the joint air or water tight.

John

"Hello John",

Your comment is Correct - However I think that I was replying to your question about - `What difference does it make whether poured Lead Joints are Caulked while Hot or Later when cooled down ?` - words to that effect.

I came to your reply from an Email Notification Link - So I have not looked back into the sequence of Posts that led to Me Posting what You Quoted in your Post - But I think that what I stated above is correct.


CHRISM

 

[johnjh2o]

I have caulked many joints in my 50 years as a contractor. Most of which have been tested. Many of these joints the lead was caulked well after they cooled. I'm not sure of the method of testing you are referring to but the way are joints were tested was to cap and fill the lines until it overflowed the vent above the roof. (in many cases it was two or more stories. Even when there was a occasional all that was required to fix it was to do a little more caulking of the now many day old cooled lead.

John

 

[CHRISM]

I have caulked many joints in my 50 years as a contractor. Most of which have been tested. Many of these joints the lead was caulked well after they cooled. I'm not sure of the method of testing you are referring to but the way are joints were tested was to cap and fill the lines until it overflowed the vent above the roof. (in many cases it was two or more stories. Even when there was a occasional all that was required to fix it was to do a little more caulking of the now many day old cooled lead.

John

"Hello John",

What You describe as having `Done all of Your Working Life` - words to that effect IS probably the `Norm` here in the U.K. also regarding Caulking Poured Lead Joints or Re-Caulking / `Tapping Up` long after the Joint being poured.

But I was explaining to a `Novice` / `Learner` how to Caulk Joints in the BEST Way - Although He has written that He MAY want to do this occasionally to Help Friends etc. - He probably will NOT be carrying out very many of these Joints - and almost certainly NOT in a Time Sensitive / Piece Work / Commercially Tight Circumstance.

The reason that People do NOT Caulk Joints when Hot is usually because THEY do NOT see it as `Necessary` - They feel that this Method is just a `Delay` in pouring a Number of Joints - NOT because it is not the Correct Way to do it.



Regarding the Testing that I was referring to:

As You know Air will escape where Water will NOT - I am referring to Air Testing of Above Ground Cast Iron Drainage / Cast Iron Soil & Waste Water Pipework - Especially where these Pipes are Installed within a Building.

Pipework that does NOT Leak when Water Tested is NOT necessarily `Safe` from the escape of Methane / Bacteria etc. - I am sure that We have all experienced the situation where a Bad Smell pervades a Property - because of some kind of escape of the Smell / Methane / Bacteria from the Drainage System.

Although a small Air Leak would not normally cause any Problems because of the size of the Vent Stack in comparison to a `Slight Air Leak` - there CAN be escapes of Bacteria / Methane etc. - in the U.K. We Air Test ALL Above Ground Drainage / Soil & Waste Water Stacks / Waste Pipes - Again I ASSUMED that this would be a Method of Testing in the Plumbing Industry in the U.S.

By the Way - I do know the `Old Saying` about `Assume`.

From what You wrote this is obviously another example of `We don`t do that in the U.S.` - So I have found another reason why I am wasting My Time by Posting on this Forum.

Thank You for enlightening Me - Indirectly - by Your comments about this Difference / Not used in the U.S. - regarding Methods of Testing.


CHRISM

 

[phishfood]

It is relatively rare to air test a drainage system in my area. It is usually only done when water is not available, or when the system is so large that the amount of water that would have to be drained down in the event of a leak is excessively large.

In fact, the manufacturers of plastic pipe and fittings strongly dixcourage testing their products with air, as a failure of the pipe or fittings can cause pieces of the plastic to be turned into dangerous missles. I imagine that this would be less of a concern with cast iron or the like.

 

[CHRISM]

"Hello Phishfood",

When We Air Test the Above Ground Drainage / Soil Stacks and Waste Water Stacks and Waste Pipes only a Manometer is used - the same as is used on a Gas Pipework Test is what is usually used.

We do not Air Test at High Pressure - Because on Soil Stacks and Waste Water Stacks the Final Test is when everything is Installed that discharges into the Stacks - They are typically only Air Tested to what the Sanitary Ware / Sinks Traps will Hold - I.E. Up to a 75mm / 3" Seal - So just slightly below 3" / 75mm Water Gauge Test.

This is definitely enough as You would know to `Show` any Air Leak on the Manometer.

Before the Sanitary Ware / Waste Pipes are Installed - when the Soil Stacks / Waste Water Stacks or Above Ground Drainage are Installed We would also Test with a Manometer - probably using a 4" 0r 6" Water Gauge Test.

IF We have a Air Leak at this stage We would then use a slightly Higher Pressure in order to locate the Air Leak using a Soft Soap Solution.

On Stacks that have Multiple Branches it is sometimes necessary to introduce Coloured Smoke into the Stack - then apply a slight pressure to see IF it will Indicate an Air Leak.

These Air Tests are carried out with enough pressure - although VERY Low - to indicate that the Joints are Air Tight - So they will also not Leak Water - But primarily they will not allow any Methane / Bacteria / `Smells` [Usually either Methane or Bacteria / Ammonia / Sulphur based] to Escape.

When I realised that Air Testing like this was NOT a Normal Task that is carried out in Plumbing in the U.S. - I did not think that the subject would be continued - But having been Notified of Your Post I was pleased to Answer You.


Regards,

Chris

 

[Mr_David]

Hi CHRISM, Keeping busy I see.