Bathroom/Laundry remodel: Assistance requested

[havasu]

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts. In this state the Only 2 things an unlicensed individual can perform is clear a blockage and change washers. That's the way it should be, protect your job and keep YOUR lively hood, not to mention the health and safety concerns that could result from poor/improper installations of plumbing/gas work.i can remember a time before the big box stores came into this state that NO HOMEOWNERS could buy Plumbing Supply's from supply houses. You want to start trickle down economics, start by keeping people TRAINED and LICENSED doing the professions they are supposed to be doing so THEY can provide for their family's and go out and spend money at the place that Joe homeowner works so he can save his job. I don't mind answering a question about repairing a faucet or clearing a drain but I refuse to help with plumbing/gas installations. Maybe I'm on the wrong site.
Regards:
Chris




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So, are you telling me that as a homeowner living in Mass., I would be arrested if I was to change out the supply lines under the sink? I'm sorry but it seems that there is some untruths in this statement. Almost as if someone was lying just to drum up some business?

By the way, who is in charge of the plumbing police?

 

[plumbdrum]

Where's all my MA plumbers to back me? Lol


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[plumbdrum]

No you would not be arrested but you be could fined, MA general laws section 142. I'm governed by the Ma plumbing/Gasfitter board so I guess I'm the plumbing police. I have a right of entry clause to enter any property with proper identification if I know of a possible health or safety violation. So that being said if I see someone carrying in a bunch of pipe and I call my office and there is no permit at such address I could ask to enter the property to see what/who is performing work. I'm usually not looking for a homeowner putting in a faucet or a toilet, I have to much going on, but people performing extensive plumbing/gas work I've got a big problem with.


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[havasu]

So, although the law enforcement needs to consider the 4th Amendment (Search and Seizure), licensed plumbers have the ability to bypass the laws set upon this country from our founding fathers? Sorry buddy, I'm not drinking the Kool Aid.


Keep digging.....

 

[plumbdrum]

Hopefully you can Hopefully you can read this.








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[Chris]

He is in CA like me.

Here as a homeowner I can run a new gas service from my home to my outdoor BBQ as long as I use approved materials and do it per code and pass all inspections and tests. To me having that license does not mean you do good work. I work with contractors all over the place that do shoddy work on a daily basis.

Here in CA I can buy a plot of land and build a house from the ground up and the only thing I would have to contract out would be tapping into the city mains for water and sewer in which I would hire an Engineering contractor like myself. The gas company will bring the gas supply to the meter outside and that is where they stop. Everything else can be done by the homeowner and is done in a large scale here locally. I am willing to bet that there are fewer errors with the homeowner built homes than those of a large company that slap them together using unskilled labor.

Question for you. you are a licensed plumber in Mass, can you hire employees? and if so are they allowed to install plumbing and gas with you not standing next to them? If so how is that different than a skilled homeowner doing the work?

Also if you walked up to my door and told me you were coming in to see if I was doing any plumbing I would shut the door in your face. If the police and OSHA have to make an appointment an inspector sure as hell isn't coming in.

 

[Chris]

Lets give a hypothetical situation here.

You have an elderly man and his wife who have lived in his home for 50 years, he has done his repairs himself as needed. He saves up to finally get that water heater changed out by a licensed plumber and upon inspection the inspector calls a 20 year old repair done by an unskilled plumber and tells the licensed plumber he needs to fix it per Mass code before he will sign off on his permit. Well the elderly couple has absolutely no money for extras and it took everything they had to get the new water heater. What happens then? Does the inspector now tell them it is unsafe to live there even tho that piece of rubber and hose clamp has been holding that P-trap together for 20 years? Does the plumber have to eat the cost of the repair?

I bet a lot of people just don't fix problems there because of the cost issues.

 

[plumbdrum]

Well I'm glad that's the way it is in your state way over there. As a master plumber you can hire other masters or journeyman plumbers and apprentices at a ratio of 1 to 1. I agree that just because you have a license doesn't make you a craftsman, that's where the inspections come in to enforce workmanship like manner. It is scary to think that just anybody without any credentials can install gas , just is just mind blowing. As for the case of me coming in your house in this state, if I felt there was a danger I could order the providing gas co. To terminate the gas at the meter or street. It's the way it is here and I'm glad we have the rules set in place for the safety of the public. Tell me what is the max PSI that you can run gas in a building in Ca?


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[plumbdrum]

I would look at each situation and use judgement . I have has situations like that and given timelines. Sometimes I go in for an inspection for such things and don't see all the violations because they are out of sight. I don't go ruffling through peoples things looking for problems.


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[plumbdrum]

I got called by the Gas Co last week on potential deadly situation where a homeowner install 4 heating boilers and 3 water heater into a undersized common vent manifold. It kept tripping the spill switches on the boiler so they bypassed it electrically . Also no combustion air and numerous gas leaks from them installing that CSST garbage that they weren't certified to install. I order the gas to be terminated until permits were secured by a Licensed individual and corrected to 248CMR which is our plumbing codes and our amended NFPA 54 codes. For this reason I stand by my beliefs that licensed people should perform plumbing and gas installations. I will continue to drink my Kool aid and stand my ground on this. I guess I don't need to worry about CA or any other state but my own I guess.


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[Chris]

I don't personally do gas work but when I converted my vacation home from propane to natural gas I was required to test my existing system at 3-5 PSI, One gas company employee told me they run it out of their meter at about 1/2 psi.

We have individuals install their own stuff daily but we almost never have any health or safety problems with the installs. Maybe that is why they don't put a bunch of rules in place? Like most people that come to this site they research things before they install anything as to do it right.

Out here a single plumbing contractor can hire as many people as he would like. If they do shoddy work he will be out of business before to long, around here word of mouth get around quick. That is how these drain cleaning and repair plumbers can have 200 trucks on the road at any given time.

Is it just plumbing and gas work that Mass is babysitting or are there more trades that only licensed folks can touch?

 

[Chris]

I got called by the Gas Co last week on potential deadly situation where a homeowner install 4 heating boilers and 3 water heater into a undersized common vent manifold. It kept tripping the spill switches on the boiler so they bypassed it electrically . Also no combustion air and numerous gas leaks from them installing that CSST garbage that they weren't certified to install. I order the gas to be terminated until permits were secured by a Licensed individual and corrected to 248CMR which is our plumbing codes and our amended NFPA 54 codes. For this reason I stand by my beliefs that licensed people should perform plumbing and gas installations. I will continue to drink my Kool aid and stand my ground on this. I guess I don't need to worry about CA or any other state but my own I guess.


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We all have situations like these and it is not so much a home owner doing his own work but an idiot trying to cheap out and not do things properly but that is why we have inspectors and permits. This guy was dead set on doing it wrong from the get go. Even tho you have the law it won't stop stupid. Things like this are unavoidable and will continue to happen.

 

[plumbdrum]

I'm off my soap box now and staying in my safe state. As far as other trades there are limited homeowner permits for construction and electrical. Commercial work would defiantly require licensed individuals.


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[plumbdrum]

I'll be the guy not giving misinformation on how to install plumbing, if you look back at the isometric sketch that the homeowner displayed, would you consider that to be a correct drainage and vent system? I will try to refrain from posting anymore on certain threads because of my beliefs .


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[Zanne]

Plumdrum, you do bring up some interesting points. I do completely understand not wanting to take away work from licensed professionals when the work is very complicated and requires an expert (or at least someone who has training).

I can tell you that I would never attempt to mess with a gas hookup myself. I don't even have gas in my home now. The idea of someone who doesn't know what they are doing trying to much about with gas lines.. *shudder*

Just out of curiosity, can a homeowner replace existing things that are broken/leaking with identical or similar things? Like, say I have rigid plastic water supply lines that are leaking and I want to replace them with the flexible hoses-- would that be allowed?

Also, I'd like to show photographic evidence of something a licensed plumber installed in my kitchen.

Notice the S-trap and lack of plumbing vent where it is needed?

THIS is why I want to know how things are supposed to be hooked up. This was done before the internet existed and I didn't know anything about plumbing codes. I would rather be able to watch as things are being done and be able to know if something is not being done right, than to have the inspector come out later to say its wrong and then have to pay extra to have it fixed.

I've heard people who don't know jack about plumbing trying to give plumbing advice to homeowners.. Like the jerk from Pizza Hut who was telling my friend that he could just dig a trench and have a pipe go from under his house to the street to drain waste from his kitchen sink, washing machine, and dishwasher. I was standing nearby and said "NO!"
Then the guy claimed he did that with his own home. Wish I knew where he lived so I could report his ass. What a jerk.

Now, back to the proper way to hook up the shower and toilet if I move things, do any of the drawings look correct? What sort of bends/Ts or whatever would be necessary?
(I might as well purchase them myself because my plumber just buys them at the most expensive store in town and doesn't get any type of discount so its actually cheaper for me to get them).

 

[plumbdrum]

Plumdrum, you do bring up some interesting points. I do completely understand not wanting to take away work from licensed professionals when the work is very complicated and requires an expert (or at least someone who has training).

I can tell you that I would never attempt to mess with a gas hookup myself. I don't even have gas in my home now. The idea of someone who doesn't know what they are doing trying to much about with gas lines.. *shudder*

Just out of curiosity, can a homeowner replace existing things that are broken/leaking with identical or similar things? Like, say I have rigid plastic water supply lines that are leaking and I want to replace them with the flexible hoses-- would that be allowed?

Also, I'd like to show photographic evidence of something a licensed plumber installed in my kitchen.

Notice the S-trap and lack of plumbing vent where it is needed?

THIS is why I want to know how things are supposed to be hooked up. This was done before the internet existed and I didn't know anything about plumbing codes. I would rather be able to watch as things are being done and be able to know if something is not being done right, than to have the inspector come out later to say its wrong and then have to pay extra to have it fixed.

I've heard people who don't know jack about plumbing trying to give plumbing advice to homeowners.. Like the jerk from Pizza Hut who was telling my friend that he could just dig a trench and have a pipe go from under his house to the street to drain waste from his kitchen sink, washing machine, and dishwasher. I was standing nearby and said "NO!"
Then the guy claimed he did that with his own home. Wish I knew where he lived so I could report his ass. What a jerk.

Now, back to the proper way to hook up the shower and toilet if I move things, do any of the drawings look correct? What sort of bends/Ts or whatever would be necessary?
(I might as well purchase them myself because my plumber just buys them at the most expensive store in town and doesn't get any type of discount so its actually cheaper for me to get them).

As for that mess of kitchen sink piping goes. How I would handle this in my city would be to ( now I can't wait for the responses to this) because this would be considered a repair I would advise the plumber to use 2 anti siphon traps and a full size clean out . With that being said because this is a repair , I would allow the plumber to deviate from the code. I know somebody is going to say to use a air admittance vent, but they are not approved in MA without special permission from the board. For your project if you said you were going to hire a plumber then why would you want to know how to pipe it? So you know, the diagram is wrong.


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[plumbdrum]

I should have also stated to remove all tubular piping back to solid pipe PVC,C.I, COP. And also sorry that you got swindled by a so called professional.


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[Zanne]

As for that mess of kitchen sink piping goes. How I would handle this in my city would be to ( now I can't wait for the responses to this) because this would be considered a repair I would advise the plumber to use 2 anti siphon traps and a full size clean out . With that being said because this is a repair , I would allow the plumber to deviate from the code. I know somebody is going to say to use a air admittance vent, but they are not approved in MA without special permission from the board. For your project if you said you were going to hire a plumber then why would you want to know how to pipe it? So you know, the diagram is wrong.


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As I stated in a previous post, I wanted to know how it should be piped so I would not get swindled again. I also want to know how much of what supplies I will need to better estimate how much it is going to cost and try to use resources efficiently. Plus, there is the matter of intellectual curiosity. I can be a bit ocd about wanting to know the ins and outs of a project. Whenever I have work done, I want to know how it is supposed to be done and why, and why certain things are not supposed to be done and so forth.

There are only two licensed plumbers for my county/parish and only one of them works on DWV systems. The one that works on DWV systems sort of got grandfathered in to the system because he worked under his father-- who was the plumber that did work on our house.

AAVs are not allowed here either so I had ruled that out.

 

[plumbdrum]

A plumber that doesn't work on DWV ?


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[Zanne]

A plumber that doesn't work on DWV ?


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yeah. I know. That was my reaction when I found out. The hardware store guys said that guy pretty much only does water supply lines whereas the other guy only does the DWV systems-- but he mostly focuses on the sewage aspect-- clearing clogs and such. His brother-in-law is his assistant and actually does most of the grunt work.

Apparently contracts for major work are unheard of around here and they go on "handshake" deals. It's a homeowner's nightmare.

Louisiana is fairly assbackwards-- at least the part that I'm in is.