Winterizing a home

[greatwhitenorth]

I am new to the South Dakota black hills area. Gets really really cold here. I am installing a brand new water service line from the curb stop to the meter inside the garage.

The house will be vacant in the winter. I plan on having a plumber winterize the home. He will blow out the lines and put anti-freeze in some places as I understand it.

What I don't understand is what will keep the new water service line from freezing where it comes up into the garage? I don't think it is possible to blow the water out of it, is it?

Is there anything I can do with the new service line I plan on installing that will help with winterizing it?

Thanks for any help. This new service line is expensive and I really would hate to spend all that money and have it freeze and burst.

 

[johnjh2o]

Install a curb stop with a drain. When the valve is closed it opens the drain.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Homewerk...Cu8vfS_bPEtNoBEiQACrt006C8-KzHTcc1QZ2V0If-S9a

 

[frodo]

drain and wastes are illegal to install due to back siphonage

if you do not mind drinking water with ferterliser and bug killer in it go ahead

 

[frodo]

heat trace it, and build a box around it with 12'' of insulation, seal it completly

 

[johnjh2o]

It depends where you are. In cold parts of the country they are very common. But they are also 3' to 4' under ground.

 

[frodo]

please me,

as to where it is allowed, the upc 602.1 says no, unlawful connection
and the ipc 608.7 states not underground only

BUT,,this old dawg is always willing to learn new tricks

 

[greatwhitenorth]

Thanks for the answers. I looked up a heat tracing system and the best case I could see was a 70 hour freeze time at 0 deg F ambient.
http://www.urecon.com/applications/municipal_pipe.html
I'm sure I could find better, but eventually its gonna freeze I would think if I leave the garage unheated all winter.

Hope this don't sound stupid, but why couldn't I install a Tee where the service line starts its journey up into the garage and then have two water lines coming up into the garage. One would feed the meter and the other would have a shut off valve and cap for good measure for normal summer use. When winterizing I could uncap the second line and blow the water out with compressed air after turning off the curb stop. Would this be a workable idea?

Edit: by the way, I think the curb stop and service line are buried 6 feet if that matters.

 

[frodo]

if your curb stop is buried 6' you will need a key to turn the valve, turn the valve off, and disconect the line
where it comes up out of the ground. blow it out.. your done.

 

[greatwhitenorth]

That's what Im having trouble understanding. If the curbstop is closed and I pressure up the line with air ... where does the water come out?

if your curb stop is buried 6' you will need a key to turn the valve, turn the valve off, and disconect the line
where it comes up out of the ground. blow it out.. your done.

 

[frodo]

it will blow back up and hit you in the face.

then the line will be only half full.

if the water freezes then, no big deal, as it freezes it will swell, but since it is only half full,

it has some where to go, when it expands ti will not be trapped and burst the pipe

l

 

[johnjh2o]

it will blow back up and hit you in the face.

then the line will be only half full.

if the water freezes then, no big deal, as it freezes it will swell, but since it is only half full,

it has some where to go, when it expands ti will not be trapped and burst the pipe

l

I hope you are kidding.

 

[frodo]

not kidding at all.

i use a 1/4'' pipe to shove into a 3/4 line to blow them out

 

[Chris]

You likely already have a stop and waste valve in the ground. I would disconnect in the garage after turning the water off and see if it is draining. Even here in the cold parts of California it is common practice. It will be deep like you said 6' to be below the frost line which is usually 4-5'

Do you have what looks like a square piece of 1/2" steel rod coming up out of the ground for your shut off? If so that is usually connected to your stop and waste

 

[Chris]

it will blow back up and hit you in the face.

then the line will be only half full.

if the water freezes then, no big deal, as it freezes it will swell, but since it is only half full,

it has some where to go, when it expands ti will not be trapped and burst the pipe

l

I have had two lines burst at my mountain house with a drained system. There was maybe a couple cups worth of water at a low point with all valves open. Still froze and burst a pipe. Now I just leave my heater on at 50 and nothing freezes.

 

[johnjh2o]

You likely already have a stop and waste valve in the ground. I would disconnect in the garage after turning the water off and see if it is draining. Even here in the cold parts of California it is common practice. It will be deep like you said 6' to be below the frost line which is usually 4-5'

Do you have what looks like a square piece of 1/2" steel rod coming up out of the ground for your shut off? If so that is usually connected to your stop and waste

If that is the case there would be no need to blow it out.

 

[Chris]

Exactly! But it would be worth pulling a pipe apart just to verify it drains.

 

[frodo]

If that is the case there would be no need to blow it out.

not true

it would need a vent to drain.

simple explanation, glass full of water with a straw in it
place finger over the end of straw, pick up the straw, water stays in straw
no vent

remove finger from straw, water drains vent because it is vented

if the pipe has a stop and waste valve, it will not waste till it is vented

 

[johnjh2o]

Open a outside faucet or any other faucet.

 

[greatwhitenorth]

Frodo,

Thanks for all the help. When I imagine what you are describing I think about a glass full to the brim with water. I put a straw in which fills with water as I put it in. Blowing on it, I think, would cause a volume of water equal to the volume in the straw to come out, and after that the air would just bubble to the surface and escape.
As that relates to blowing out the pipe: Since the ratio of volume of two pipes is the ratio of their respective radiuses squared that would work out to 0.125^2/0.375^2 = 0.111 . So if I wanted to remove the water all the way down 6 feet, I would need 6ft/0.111 = 54 ft of quarter inch tubing inside the water service line. Its hard to imagine practically.
Am I thinking about this correctly?

not kidding at all.

i use a 1/4'' pipe to shove into a 3/4 line to blow them out

 

[greatwhitenorth]

You likely already have a stop and waste valve in the ground. I would disconnect in the garage after turning the water off and see if it is draining. Even here in the cold parts of California it is common practice. It will be deep like you said 6' to be below the frost line which is usually 4-5'

Do you have what looks like a square piece of 1/2" steel rod coming up out of the ground for your shut off? If so that is usually connected to your stop and waste

All I can see is the little round metal cover. If I take if off and look down the hole I just see water (presumably because of the leak). There is no rod coming out of the ground. As I understand it, the city uses a really long curb stop key to turn the water off.

The contractor whose going to dig it up suggested a stop and drain. Told him I was concerned with contaminating my water and he said he puts it in a bed of rocks which eliminates that concern. I don't understand how it could though.

The water is puddling up a good 5 or 6 feet away from the curb stop on the house side. Ive been told there is some chance that the curb stop itself is whats leaking and the water is following the service line uphill before bubbling up. The city told me if I get it dug up and it is the curb stop, that they will reimburse the repair expensed. Everyone locally Ive told that has literally laughed out loud, not at the idea it might be the curb stop, rather at the idea the city would reimburse me.

The only good news in all this is that my curb stop is on my side of the street.

So far I am leaning toward digging up the line and running it to juuust inside the garage and insulating and heat tracing it where it comes up. If I can convince myself that the stop and drain wont contaminate my water I will likely do that too.

One concern is that this is a 80 year old neighborhood with sewer lines going who knows where.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. Hope you made it this far and THANKS for taking the time to advise.