why are there 3 water lines on my water heater

[kat]

I am an experienced DIY homeowner, but this one perplexes me:

I have a gas tank water heater.

there are two water lines on the top, which are connected to the cold water (in) and hot water (out) lines in my attic, i checked

what is the 3rd one doing? it comes out of the drain faucet on the bottom, then has this big red box thing (that is plugged into an outlet nearby) on it, then goes up into the attic as a copper line. What is this one supposed to do?

I turned the blue handle to off, and there seems to be no problem with hot or cold water running in the house, so is that OK?

(sorry the 3rd image is turned sideways)

 

[frodo]

it is a circulating pump. you have a a recirc line on your water heater

can you tell what is controlling the pump? or is it wired to run 24/7?

to save $ I would wire it thru a aqua stat

then it can come on only when needed


http://www.amazon.com/Grundfos-Clip-Aquastat-Control-595444/dp/B002EB6C5A#product-description-iframe

 

[journeyman]

that pump looks really bad and i am pretty sure that a t&p drain line cannot be a washer hose go figure it was probably done by a so called plumber or experienced diyer

 

[kat]

what is a t&p drain?

"must have been done by an experienced diyer" - hahaha, that's why i don't do plumbing. you should see what the previous owner has done to this house. its a mess.

 

[kat]

what is a recirculating pump/line?

no, i cannot turn it on. i turned the blue handle off. I will explain in a lengthy post later

 

[speedbump]

If that recirc pump is working, wouldn't he want the pipes insulated so he isn't heating the home with hot water?

 

[frodo]

what is a recirculating pump/line?

no, i cannot turn it on. i turned the blue handle off. I will explain in a lengthy post later

Circulating pumps are often used to circulate domestic hot water so that a faucet will provide hot water instantly upon demand, or (more conserving of energy) a short time after a user's request for hot water. In regions where water conservation issues are rising in importance with rapidly expanding and urbanizing populations local water authorities offer rebates to homeowners and builders that install a circulator pump to save water. In typical one-way plumbing without a circulation pump, water is simply piped from the water heater through the pipes to the tap. Once the tap is shut off, the water remaining in the pipes cools producing the familiar wait for hot water the next time the tap is opened. By adding a circulator pump and constantly circulating a small amount of hot water through the pipes from the heater to the farthest fixture and back to the heater, the water in the pipes is always hot, and no water is wasted during the wait. The tradeoff is the energy wasted in operating the pump and the additional demand on the water heater to make up for the heat lost from the constantly hot pipes.

While the majority of these pumps mount nearest to the hot water heater and have no adjustable temperature capabilities, a significant reduction in energy can be achieved by utilizing a temperature adjustable thermostatically controlled circulation pump mounted at the last fixture on the loop. Thermostatically controlled circulation pumps allow owners to choose the desired temperature of hot water to be maintained within the hot water pipes since most homes do not require 120 °F (49 °C) degree water instantly out of their taps. Thermostatically controlled circulation pumps cycle on and off to maintain a user's chosen temperature and consume less energy than a continuously operating pump. By installing a thermostatically controlled pump just after the farthest fixture on the loop, cyclic pumping maintains ready hot water up to the last fixture on the loop instead of wasting energy heating the piping from the last fixture to the water heater. Often installing a circulation pump at the farthest fixture on hot water circulation loop due to limited available space, cosmetics, noise restrictions or lack of available power. Recent advancements in hot water circulation technology allow for benefiting from temperature controlled pumping without having to install the pump at the last fixture on the hot water loop. These advanced hot water circulation systems utilize a water contacting temperature probe strategically installed at the last fixture on the loop to minimize the energy wasted heating lengthy return pipes. Thermal insulation applied to the pipes helps mitigate this second loss and minimize the amount of water that must be pumped to keep hot water constantly available.

The traditional hot water recirculation system uses a dedicated return line from the point of use located farthest from the hot water tank back to the hot water tank. In homes where this return line was not installed the cold water line is used as a return line. The first of two system types has a pump mounted at the hot water heater while a "normally open" thermostatic control valve gets installed at the farthest fixture from the water heater and closes once hot water contacts the valve to control crossover flow between the hot and cold lines. A second type of system utilizes a thermostatically controlled pump which gets installed at the farthest fixture from the water heater. These thermostatically controlled pumps often have a built-in "normally closed" check-valve which prevents water in the cold water line from entering into the hot water line. Compared to a dedicated return line, using the cold water line as a return has the disadvantage of heating the cold water pipe (and the contained water). Accurate temperature monitoring and active flow control can minimize loss of cold water within the cold water line.

Technological advancements within the industry allow for incorporating timers to limit the operations during specific hours of the day to reduce energy waste by only operating when occupants are likely to use hot water. Additional advancements in technology include pumps which cycle on and off to maintain hot water temperature versus a continuously operating pump which consumes more electrical energy. Reduced energy waste and discomfort is possible by preventing occurrences of hot water line siphoning in open-loop hot water circulation systems which utilize the cold water line to return water back to the water heater. Hot Water Line Siphoning occurs when water from within the hot water line siphons or is forced into the cold water line due to differences in water pressure between the hot and cold water lines. Utilizing "normally closed" solenoid valve significantly reduces energy consumption by preventing siphoning of non-hot water out of hot water lines during cold water use. Using cold water instantly lowers the water pressure in the cold water lines, the higher water pressure in the hot water lines force water through "normally open" thermostatic crossover valves and backflow check valves (which only prevent cold water from flowing into hot water line), increasing the energy demand on the water heater.

 

[frodo]

If that recirc pump is working, wouldn't he want the pipes insulated so he isn't heating the home with hot water?

looks like it is, look at the picture of the flue pipe.

see the 1" line with insulation on it to the upper left. think maybe that is circ line. what do you think?


pump is in the wrong position, never supposed to be below the flow. heats the motor

or so the directions on taco/grundfos motors say.

matt is the resident pump dude. matt, your opinion?

 

[kat]

Thank you frodo.

The line is indeed insulated, and it must have been a hot water return/recirculating to the WH. THe distal end is where the last fixture is (interestingly the connection is before/proximal to the last hot water fixture).

Whether the pump is running or not at this point, is rather irrelevant.

What is relevant though, that this connection was either
1. not noticed
2. noticed but ignored
3. maliciously left there with inent to harm

You see, the galvanized water lines, to which this recirculating line is hooked up, were disconnected from all the fixtures about 5 years ago, when we developed pin hole leaks in them, and had the water supply replaced by a kind of PEX done by a licensed plumbing company. The ends of the galvanized where they had been disconnected from the fixtures were left UNCAPPED in the walls.

For some reason, this recirculating line reversed its flow over time (maybe the inside of the pump or the check valve corroded to allow back flow under pressure?), and the WH fed water back into the old disconnected galvanized pipes with the open ends, and flooded my house.

like this:

Most of the flooding came from a single fixture location in one wall, which is where we located the problem.

If there is minor flooding in other walls, that we do not know.

Would any decent plumber
1. not notice this hookup could create a problem in the future, and deal with it/cap it/disconnect it at the time of the PEX installation?
2. not cap off the disconnected galvanized ends in the walls?

I remember clearly being very concerned at the time, that if somehow water got in those galvanized pipes left in place, it could flood us, and I remember specifically asking the plumber, who told me it was "ok."

 

[frodo]

In my opinion, IF you are a plumber.

just by looking at the w/h and the pump you can tell it is a circ system.

2 things bother me, the plumber did not repipe the circ line. why? was he paid to do so?
what did the contract say? what was the actual verbege?

the other. he had to be a frigging idiot not to cap off that line

if your contract says to. replace the domestic water "system" at ADDRESS he was under contract to repipe the circ line

if it says hot and cold supply lines only. he has managed a wormy out

 

[kat]

The proposal said
1) provide and install new aquapex pipe for hot and cold water lines
2) p and i new aquapex fittings
3) p and i new chrome 1/4 angle stopes
4) pa dna i new stainless steel supply lines
5) p and i ball valve shut off at house
6) p and i new water flexes at water heater
70 necessary labor for proper installation of water distribution system
8) full 25 year warranty on per pipe and fittings and 5 years on labor….


so he will weasel out because actually this work was completed in Oct 2009. So he will say the labor warranty has expired.
he is coming out tonight.

 

[kat]

So the plumber just left, and our conversation was very unproductive. (my husband will be calling the owner of the company tomorrow, if that goes nowhere, we will post their names and this all over the internet….)

He basically said:
1. they never cap the cut ends int he walls (and they have no intention of ever doing that)
2. they never check the old disconnected water system for things like a recirc line
3. they didn't look at our water heater at the time of the install

He did not have any answer to how a licensed and experienced plumber would not see the recirc line, when he is working all around it (at the far end, it is very very visible, next to where they were working, and on the WH end, the recirc line is immediately next to the two lines they connected to the PEX), and basically made some derogatory comment about how the previous homeowner who put in the recirc line must have been a dumbs, and who would do such a thing etc etc.

He showed no remorse. He did not say anything to the effect that our experience may have taught them something, that may help them avoid disasters like this with other homeowners in the future.