Well suddenly only produces 30 psi

[Bert]

Hi well experts. I just moved onto some property that has an existing well in a pump house (no pitless adapter). It was cycling fine between 40 and 60 psi, but then about two weeks ago it suddenly will not get above 30 psi, which causes the pump to run continuously (I have since adjusted the pressure switch and pressure tank so it now cycles between 20 and 30 psi). I don't know the history of the pump, but from the well report it is a 427' deep using a Franklin Electric 3hp motor single phase. Static level is at 80'. It uses 1.25" galvanized pipe and was installed in 1984. As far as I know, it is the original pump as the control box is also from 1984. I did replace the start capacitor as the bottom was blown out of it, but couldn't find any other problems above ground. I looked up the pump specs and did an ohms test on the motor and it appeared to be within specifications, so I suspect a leak in the galvanized pipe. A few days ago the pressure suddenly came back for about half an hour, but the water was red/brown. After that the water again went down to 30 psi and the water became clear.

I already talked with a well guy and his advice is to replace everything, but with 1.25" galvanized pipe at $7 a foot I am seeing if there are other options. So, what would you do if this were your well problem?

 

[Valveman]

If there is a hole in the drop pipe the pressure would not have "come back for a half hour or so". "Cycling" is certainly one of your biggest problems. A blown start cap is a good indicator of too much cycling on/off.

The "red/brown stuff may have worn out the pump, be heavy on top of the check valve, or could be clogging a screen or impeller. I would try to pump the well out at high volume to get the crud off the check valve. If it won't build to 60 and shut off it will most likely need to be pulled to see what the problem is.

Going back with Sch 120 PVC pipe is better for many reasons.

 

[Bert]

Thanks for your input. From what I could tell Sch 120 PVC at 427' will not support a 3hp motor. If you have a link to a chart I would like to see it. Also, the walls of Sch 120 PVC are so much thicker than galvanized pipe I wonder how much less my gpm would be.

 

[wpns]

You've gotten 38 years, a pretty good run out of the existing system. While it might be expensive I'd go with the 'replace everything and know it's good for another few decades' rather than 'what can I kludge to get another few years out of it?' solution.

What's your current (open) flow rate, and what rate do you need for the house? 3HP sounds like a lot, but maybe there's something we don't know.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the hole was temporarily plugged by some crud (rust, silt from the bottom of the well, broken bits of pump impeller?) that's worked it's way out, so you'll want to do a complete diagnosis and cleanup anyway.

If the well is 427 feet deep and the static level is 180 feet, is the pump at the bottom of the well or somewhere in the middle? What's the recharge rate? You might very well get away with setting the new pump higher, in case the bottom of the hole has been clogged with silt.

 

[Valveman]

https://www.cresline.com/uploads/cwpvc8.pdf
This chart shows 1 1/4" sch 120 is good to 300 PSI and with a 2HP pump can go as deep as 520'. Not much difference for a 3HP but it doesn't list a 3HP.

Yes sch 120 has thicker walls and smaller ID. But PVC is so much slicker than galvanized it is probably even less friction loss. Shouldn't make much difference with such a high head pump anyway.

Now, we would need to know the model of the pump being used to check the max pressure when using a CSV. Just have to stay under the 300 PSI limit, but it can usually be done and then you can get the benefits of a Cycle Stop Valve as well.

 

[Bert]

Thanks for the link Valveman. I have seen charts like this as well. None of them go above 2hp, and my well guy will not install a 3hp for PVC because no well chart will show it. Currently I'm thinking of replacing the whole thing with a 2hp pump instead of 3hp and use PVC. Now the decision I have to make is to get a single phase or the more expensive 3-phase constant velocity pump.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Thanks for the link Valveman. I have seen charts like this as well. None of them go above 2hp, and my well guy will not install a 3hp for PVC because no well chart will show it. Currently I'm thinking of replacing the whole thing with a 2hp pump instead of 3hp and use PVC. Now the decision I have to make is to get a single phase or the more expensive 3-phase constant velocity pump.

It shows 1.5” carrying a 5 hp motor.
Could you use 1.5” ?
What’s the weight difference between a 2hp and a 3hp ? You’ll have a torque arrestors either way.

 

[Bert]

I'm looking at 1.25" pipe. The max is 2hp.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I'm looking at 1.25" pipe. The max is 2hp.

I do not know wells. But I do know pvc.

1.5” pvc isn’t that much stronger than 1.25” pvc if any when you’re talking about torquing the threads. The threads are the weak point in any pvc system.

Would pex work ? I sure wouldn’t use steel.

 

[Bert]

From what I've read, galvanized steel will go any depth, PVC has some limitations, and continuous poly pipe will go up to about 100'. Apparently pex is not used for wells.

 

[wpns]

We had poly pipe at 600 feet with a 2HP pump, were told that was the limit for poly (_AFTER_ the well was drilled to 755 feet, sigh).

 

[Twowaxhack]

From what I've read, galvanized steel will go any depth, PVC has some limitations, and continuous poly pipe will go up to about 100'. Apparently pex is not used for wells.

Yeah, Polyethylene pipe, not pex. Pex is cross linked poly . Pex is poly but not all poly is pex. Who’s on first ?

I wouldn’t use steel because it has lead in it. . Might give ya the cancer or slow learners if you have kids.

 

[Valveman]

High concentrations of lead was in every pipe, fitting, and pump for a hundred years and never hurt anyone. Oxidation causes a patina to form and the lead never gets into the water. Having acidic or hot water is the only concern as that will leach lead out of pipes, but not cool and regular ph water. Our grandparents lived to be 90-100 drinking that water everyday.

They pumped low ph water down an old line coated with patina, which is what caused the big stink in Flint. Solid lead pipes had been used in the city for a hundred years with no problem. It was only a big human error that caused the lead problem. But instead of putting the blame where it belonged, they made lead the enemy and cost ALL of us who now have to pay many times more for plumbing products that don't last nearly as long. Plumb in Latin means lead. Lead is a very important part of many metals, and is safe when used properly. Your government shifting the blame away from them is what caused the lead scare, lead is not the enemy. I have drank from galvanized fittings for most of my life, and would not be afraid for my granddaughter to do so either. Switching to low lead products cost me an amazing amount of money and is costing every homeowner as well. But I digress!

Not much difference in a 2HP and 3HP. I think the chart should show 2-3HP as the same. When using a Cycle Stop Valve the max pressure the pump can build is more important than the depth and HP. But if you can pick a pump that will work with a CSV, the torque arrestor is not needed. The CSV eliminates most of the cycles and therefore also most of the torque and a torque arrestors is not needed. I don't like torque arrestors as they tend to swell and get stiff, making it hard or impossible to pull the pump when needed.

I also would not use Pex down the well. I have seen regular poly used at 500+' myself. If you allow for the stretch, poly can do some amazing things. But poly is hard to work with at those depths.

The 3 phase motor with the variable speed controller is like buying a Tar Baby. You are then stuck using the VFD controller as it is what converts your single phase house power to three phase to run that motor. After replacing the $2000-$5000 VFD controller a few times in a short number of years, most people finally realize it would pay to pull the pump and replace with a single phase motor and use a regular control system using a pressure tank and/or a CSV where the pump will last 20-30 years without costing any more.

Pump installers are really pushing those VFD or variable speed type pumps because in the next 20-30 years they will get $20k of your money instead of just $5K over that much time with a more reliable pump system.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Well water in south Alabama is acidic. Full of iron too. We get our city water from a lake.

I’ve seen well water eat type L copper pipe in less than 5 yrs here. It’s terrible for plumbing, all plumbing.

Lead is bad, that’s fact.

All I can say is have your water tested regularly that you’re consuming, no matter the source.

 

[rickwhoo]

Do you have a "Pressure Tank"?

 

[Valveman]

Well water in south Alabama is acidic. Full of iron too. We get our city water from a lake.

I’ve seen well water eat type L copper pipe in less than 5 yrs here. It’s terrible for plumbing, all plumbing.

Lead is bad, that’s fact.

All I can say is have your water tested regularly that you’re consuming, no matter the source.

Lead is only bad if you ingest it. Lead will stay in the pipes and not leach into the water unless the water is hot or acidic. People in areas where the water is acidic know it is acidic and should not use many things that can leach into the water, including lead. But as you mentioned acidic water will also leach copper and other metals in to the solution. So it is not lead in the plumbing that is an issue but rather the acidic water is the problem. People without acidic water have no problem with copper, galvanized pipe, or other things that cannot be used in your area.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Lead is only bad if you ingest it. Lead will stay in the pipes and not leach into the water unless the water is hot or acidic. People in areas where the water is acidic know it is acidic and should not use many things that can leach into the water, including lead. But as you mentioned acidic water will also leach copper and other metals in to the solution. So it is not lead in the plumbing that is an issue but rather the acidic water is the problem. People without acidic water have no problem with copper, galvanized pipe, or other things that cannot be used in your area.

Water chemistry can change. It has to be controlled and monitored.

Pipes and fittings without lead can’t give you lead poisoning. I’ll subscribe to that rather than trying to keep the water a certain ph.

I’ve never had a customer want to go from city water to well water unless it was going to be used for irrigation.

Well water is a nightmare around here.

If you’re going to use it properly then it must be treated. That costs money and time.

 

[Valveman]

I am sorry you do not have good well water in your area, and I can see where that would make you worried about lead, copper, and other things that acidic water can eat on. But in many areas the well water is far superior to the city water and it is perfectly fine to use galvanized or copper pipes and lead in the metals is not an issue.

In my area many people switch to well water from city water as they like the taste and cost of well water better.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I am sorry you do not have good well water in your area, and I can see where that would make you worried about lead, copper, and other things that acidic water can eat on. But in many areas the well water is far superior to the city water and it is perfectly fine to use galvanized or copper pipes and lead in the metals is not an issue.

In my area many people switch to well water from city water as they like the taste and cost of well water better.

We have a fundamental difference in opinion.

Well water makes plumbers more money than city water. That’s a financial fact for me and my associates.

Well water also makes people who are in the well industry more money than city water.

Have a good day sir.

 

[Valveman]

We have a fundamental difference in opinion.

Well water makes plumbers more money than city water. That’s a financial fact for me and my associates.

Well water also makes people who are in the well industry more money than city water.

Have a good day sir.

I don't disagree. It is just a matter of location. In your area I would do as you and suggest city water is better. But I sell stuff all over the world and in most places well water is superior to city water or the city water comes from water wells anyway. I also sell as many controls for pumps that boost city water pressure to houses than I do for well pumps. So, even in cities with good quality water, many times the pressure is still inadequate. My point is if you have to pump it anyway to get good pressure, and you have good well water in your area, might as well skip the expensive middle man (city water) and just pump directly from your own well.

I have a city friend who is always talking about what will happen "come the revolution"? I tell her I will have water from my well, so come on over when that happens. I would give that a LOL! But it is getting to a point where it is not funny anymore.