Watts Instant Hot Water Recirculating Pump Problem/Question

[andy867]

So, with the help of a plumber from BullsEye Plumbing, I managed to remove a troublesome piece of pipe and get the Watts Instant Hot Water Recirculating Pump installed and running. I also insulated the Water Heater with the Heater Blanket found at Lowe's. The problem that I am running into is that I am still running into the initial problem of having to water for hot water (even though its supposed to be instant).

I have alternated between the Timer Mode in 15 minute increments (Every 15 minutes it runs; also tried the always on setting, but to no avail. Everything including the sensor valve is installed correctly per the manufacturer's specs (placing the sensor at the furthest sink from the water heater.

I have checked the hot water supply lines at the 3 sinks in my house (1065 sq ft) and NONE of them are even lukewarm to the touch. Takes almost 2 minutes to get even lukewarm water. Once the Hot water arrives, everything is dandy, but I paid almost $200 for something that was supposed to alleviate this nuisance, not just sit there and drain my wallet. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[user 1231]

Andy, I am wondering how many of the valve kits you installed. If you look on Watt's website they tell you that if you have quite a few different branches on your plumbing system, you may need to get a valve kit for each bathroom. I think that is your problem. I am very careful about the way I install these systems because depending on the way your home was plumbed it might not work well. Make sure you have the valve installed correctly under the sink. There a number of items that could be wrong. Also make sure the unit is not defective as far as the temperature sensor. If you can I would take that unit back. If you have a crawlspace I would run a circulation loop line back from the farthest fixture and tie that in at the water heater and install a Grundfos UP15 circulator pump. They are small and efficient and dedicated systems tend to work better than the watts you have now in my opinion. Also, if you can, remember to insulate (at the minimum) your main 3/4" hot water lines and the return loop line. I prefer to use insulation that is 1" wall thickness, not the thin stuff you get at Lowes or Home Depot. Another item to remember when starting a little pump like that is to run hot water in all the sinks and tubs and get any air out of the system before you plug the pump in. I know that is probably overkill but I have had a little trouble with pumps like this with air in the lines.
Hope this helps a little. Patrick

 

[andy867]

Patrick, right now I just have the single included temperature sensor installed at the furthest sink which in a straight line distance measurement is 44'. I have 2 sinks that are in very close proximity to the water heater (the water heater is in a closet space that is in the kitchen so there is the kitchen faucet and then there is a powder room right next to the closet that has the water heater.) and one thing I have been wondering about is insulating the pipes since I have a feeling that some of them are running down in the crawlspace and losing a lot of heat that way.

Linked are the two images I could readily find that show both the kitchen and best angle for the furthest sink in the house. In the first image, the Water Heater is located in that closet, and it shows both the kitchen faucet and the powder room. In the second image, the furthest sink is the first room in the hallway on the left. That image is taken from the archway of the kitchen into the living room.

http://photos2.zillow.com/is/image/...u2roj.jpg?op_sharpen=1&qlt=90&hei=446&wid=596

http://photos3.zillow.com/is/image/...2z7hf.jpg?op_sharpen=1&qlt=90&hei=446&wid=596

 

[Caduceus]

The important question that needs to be answered is this; Does the faucet that has the recirculation loop attached to the hot & cold get instant hot water?
If you turn on just that sink and the water gets hot quickly ( or faster than the other faucets) then you have what plumber4200 stated. Probably separate branches.
That is what I don't like about some of these DIY friendly systems. The manufacturer makes it seem so easy and practical, but if you don't have a perfect scenario as they show in the video the homeowner is left with little recourse and less money.
I'm sorry, andy, but the photos don't really help us with your piping layout. If you get back to us with how the one faucet is operating, maybe we can give more input. Your other option is to buy more of the loop connections for under the sinks. They are sold separately by Watts instead of buying a whole kit.
There also may be a tech support number in the packaging where they can tell you if there are any commonly overlooked details. Keep us updated.

 

[andy867]

Thats the thing is that even the Faucet with the loopback temperature sensor valve still gets cold water first before it eventually warms up. One thing someone suggested is that despite my system only being 2 weeks old, the temperature sensor MAY have gone out/have been defective from the start.

 

[user 1231]

Hey Andy,
thanx for extra info. You know I have installed the grundfos version of this product and they have always worked. Even if there were 2 branches as long as they were both quite a ways from the water heater, even the bath without the valve would benefit alot from installing just one valve. I really think the unit is defective. If you consider that the 1/2" lines coming off your 3/4" trunk lines should all now have hot water within 15 feet minimum, the whole system should benefit. My guess is that the valve is defective, since it is supposed to open and shove the lukewarm water in the hot lines back into the cold lines thereby forming a de facto loop, it is obviously not doing it. You need to try taking it back and getting a brand new one, install it and see if it works.

If a new one does not work then you need to examine your piping for cross connections.

Pat

 

[user 1231]

I have had systems with old non pressure balanced valves have cold or hot water cross into the lines and then the hot water never got totally hot. For clarification, that is what i meant by cross connection.

 

[andy867]

Gotcha. Yea I have tried releasing pressure through the pressure temperature valve to see if there was possible air still in the lines. Had that problem initially. I will see if I can just return the temp sensor since I can feel the pump working (I can feel it working and the reservoir is just as hot as the tank itself. I did adjust the temperature on the tank itself to be around 115-120, FYI.

 

[Mr_David]

You can test to see if the pump is moving the water. Remove the temp sensor valve and connect the hot and cold supplies under the sink temporally and the see if the pump is actually moving the hot into the cold.
I'm sure you verified that the pump is also installed in the right direction.
I'm familiar with the Grundfos system but I think they are similar.
Pump should be on the hot outlet of the water heater pushing the water away from the heater into the hot system.

 

[andy867]

I need to smack a b***h lol(pardon my french)...So, when I said in my initial post where I mentioned the plumber helping out, he actually put the sensor valve on BACKWARDS... *grumble*... I am letting the feedback loop do its thing and will test the water in 20 minutes to see if the problem is fixed. Thanks Mr_David and everyone else for at least getting me to this point, which I see as progress, or at the very least a step in the right direction. (and yes Mr_David, after discovering the sensor valve fault, I double-checked the pump and confirmed it is properly installed.)

 

[plumbinghelpplease]

Hello I found this old thread and I'm hoping someone here can help. I've reviewed all the different type of recirc pumps and understand how they can be installed in different locations, on demand vs. timer etc.

Re the Watts pump that connects to the hot water tank discharge, my understanding is that it runs when the timer lets it run (or always if in always-on mode) and that the sensor turn off the recirc flow at indivdual sinks (or wherever the sensor is located).

So my question is, if the sensor does the actual controlling of recirculation, and shuts off when it gets a certain temp., then why is the pump needed? Does the senor only work under correctly under the extra pressure supplied by the Watts pump?

I have a pressure booster in my house and it has about 77 PSI at the booster pump making maybe 55ish psi at the farthest sink. So I'm thinking, couldn't I accomplish the same thing by putting the sensor under the sink and just leave out the Watt's pump. The sensor is independent, it's not like it's signalling the pump to turn on and off or anything. Shouldn't this work? Maybe I'm missing something? set me straight if I am plz. Thanks for any help!

 

[johnjh2o]

You need the pump to move the hot water through the line. With just the sensor, when it opened to circulate the water there would be the same pressure on both lines so no water would move.

John

 

[plumbinghelpplease]

Thanks for setting me straight on that! The pressure thing got me to poking around and I found this: http://www.redytemp.com/images/Inefficient-hot-water-circulation.gif which shows an apparent problem with too much mixing with the Watts/Grudos valve.

If these valves do actually "bleed" hot water that does seem inefficient. Sort of like when you call for cold, you have to wait for the hot side to be hot enough to close, and then you get true "cold". Do these valves really "bleed" hot water as the animation shows?

I'm thinking maybe I could put the Watt's sensor on the 4th floor bath sink (farthest from the HW heater which is in the basement). And install the Watts pump on the hot water heater. Since that 4th fl. bath is on it's own "branch" along with one kitchen, then the second branch that has 2 baths and a kitchen shouldn't get the negative "cold water is too warm" effect. Or I guess I could use 2 valves and try to get both branches hot. That "bleeding" of hot water does seem horribly inefficient though in terms of energy (hot water heater has to heat more often) and since I have 2 hot water heaters in line it would be doubly bad. Does anyone make a standalone temp valve that would be better to use than the Watts "passive" valve that comes with the Watts pump? Thanks for the help and I apologize for the noobishness. It seems like to me if I could solve the "bleed" problem I could use the Watts pump at the water heater.

 

[plumbinghelpplease]

Or another option I guess is the push button pump under the sink ala http://www.chilipepperapp.com/Howit.htm The prob. there though is you still have to wait for hot water (but the hot water is not going down the drain - water rates where I live are nuts). But no bleeding/siphoning issue.

 

[BGA]

I recently installed a recirculation pump and after a time of the unit running I am getting hot water through both the hot and cold water valves. I tested the sensor and it is ok. I was told that I likely have a failing mixing valve somewhere in the home. How do I determine which mixing valve is failing?

BA

 

[alefromitaly]

I can try answer.. For first you should check if you have a termostatico valve out of hot tube, in a case, you should have this after hot pipe outlet.. It's possible that have a dust inside..for second you can check if you have a thermostatic mix in bathroom or in kitchen.. It's possible that they have a problem in to not return value inside this.. If you have these problems, you can clean all this part.. For third you can check the inlet of cold water in a tank, because if you haven't a non return valve, when the cold water become hot, increase pressure.. Sorry for my English.. .. I hope you understand..

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[alefromitaly]

This is an image of typical recirculation pump in a tank.. And remember, one tank must be have an expension jar, one security valve and one not return valve.. The pressure of jar should be 0.2 bar less than pressure network..

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