Tub/shower knob turns, but no water comes out

[Zanne]

I mentioned this in another thread. I have a very old shower with two knobs (hot & cold- obviously). Both knobs were replaced many years ago with the hot water being the most troublesome. I had to keep turning it more and more to get it to even come on. Last time I went to use it, it wouldn't come on at all.
Mr_David identified it as a Union Gopher knob, but it was not the original knob. I tried tightening the center screw (which was loose) and that had no effect.

I examined the stem and the splines all seem to be fine. The grooves inside the knob looked a little worn down so I decided to replace it to see if lack of grip was the problem. My brother had recently taken a shower so the hot water worked then, but for some reason is not working now.

I went to the store and got a Danco Universal knob. None of the spuds fit over the splines of the stem so I used the metal adapter (which has 3 little screws that are tightened with an allen wrench). I tightened all 3 screws and then turned the metal spud to test if it was gripping properly. I had to do some adjustments & then it was turning the stem. I could see the stem turning properly along with the spud, unfortunately, the water did not come on. It started dripping a tiny bit, but even when turned as far as I could get it to turn, it would not turn the water on. At this point, I'm not sure what to do.

The cold water knob works fine.

What could be causing the water to not come out when the stem is turned?

Old Union Gopher knob


Stem for hot water


Cold water knob. The new hot water knob looks very similar to the old cold water knob (and I used the "C" that came with the kit to replace the missing one from the cold water knob).


Any ideas/suggestions?

 

[havasu]

I'm guessing that it is only your knob is spinning and not the stem. Try turning the water on using a pair of vice grips on the stem to make sure it is turning.

 

[frodo]

look at the handle, are the spline grooves stripped out and not engaging the splines on the stem??


remove the tub spout and and shorten up that pipe
so the spout touches the tub surround

 

[Zanne]

Thanks, Havasu & Frodo. I made sure that the splines were being engaged. The universal metal spud was fully engaged and there was no slipping or looseness. I turned it & watched the stem. It didn't have any problems turning, but for some reason when it turned, it didn't get the water flowing. My guesses are that it is either not engaging with the valve inside the wall or something is clogged up with sediment. That orange film on everything is the iron sediment from the water.

This is the handle I got: https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-Universal-Replacement-Cross-Handle-in-White-46004/203193792
The pictures don't show it, but it came with a kit of plastic spuds that were specific fit & a metal universal one with screws. The metal one looks like this (well, one of them) https://www.homedepot.com/p/Partsma...EC-_-rv_gm_pip_rr-_-203193792-_-300685698-_-N
None of the plastics fit so I used the metal one & made sure it was on very securely-- no wobbling, no sliding, etc. The tiny screws fit between the splines & the square shape of the spud fits inside a square part in the handle. Underneath the coverplate in the center (on the opposite side of this view), I used a screw to secure it.


Do the shower valves have the cartridges like sink handles have? Could the cartridge be jammed or clogged? Can I safely pull on the stem to pull it out? or would it lightly break something? (Obviously, I'd have to shut the water off first).

I can provide more pictures of the metal spud in place if that would help.

The pipes are sort of loose in the wall. If I push it, the whole thing moves backward to fit more flush against the fiberglass. I do have an escutcheon that I could add around the tub spout. I eventually plan to switch this out to be a shower, but for now I just want to get it working. I'm afraid to pull too hard on anything (since I know the pipes are loose) from the tub side. Worst case scenario, if it breaks & this shower is out-of-commission, I could probably get my brother to help me take the furniture & stuff out of my tub and see if I can get that shower working-- but it hasn't been used in years & I would like to get the floor fixed up properly before doing that. I need to stop procrastinating!

TLR? The stem is turning fully with the spud & handle but the water will not come out.

 

[TomFOhio]

Zanne, take the stem completely out and check it to make sure everything looks good. If so, then turn the water on quickly
and see if water comes out ok with the stem out. If it does then try and get a new stem. If it has a rubber washer on the end
make sure it is tight and in good shape.

 

[Zanne]

Ok, dumb question here: How do I remove the stem? Should I just pull on it with plyers? I didn't see any type of retaining screws. I'm guessing it is similar to the setup for sink handles, but I want to make sure I don't break anything.

 

[havasu]

Usually you will need a stem removal socket, like the set shown.

 

[Zanne]

Thanks! I went to Lowes & they applied my mother's military discount because it's linked to the phone number. I'm exhausted from the trip (had to run back in to town a 2nd time & did some cleaning). Once I get some rest and have my brain working again, I'll see what I need to do to get the thing removed. I'm seriously thinking of just shutting off the power to the water pump instead of going out to the pump house & closing the main shutoff. It will be a lot easier.

 

[cappy208]

Does the knob just keep spinning? Or does it come to a hard/ firm stop?
If it just spins then the guts need changing
If it stops, Then sounds like corrosion and sediment have plugged the line.
Are there any other hot faucets effected?

One of the ‘joys’ of working with old plumbing is ‘creep’. As you work on a fitting it breaks off at the next fitting, And so on, and so on.... this is what drives old home plumbing repairs up. Be careful when you twist and use force. As little at possible, and if you can turn off the supply water to minimize spills.

 

[Zanne]

Does the knob just keep spinning? Or does it come to a hard/ firm stop?
If it just spins then the guts need changing
If it stops, Then sounds like corrosion and sediment have plugged the line.
Are there any other hot faucets effected?

One of the ‘joys’ of working with old plumbing is ‘creep’. As you work on a fitting it breaks off at the next fitting, And so on, and so on.... this is what drives old home plumbing repairs up. Be careful when you twist and use force. As little at possible, and if you can turn off the supply water to minimize spills.

It comes to a complete stop.
No other hot water lines are affected.
I wish there was an easily accessible supply shutoff, but my options are to either shut off the breaker to the pump or go out to the well-house (which is not easy to get to right now) and shut off the main line. I'm leaning toward the breaker option.

 

[Zanne]

I found a good video that helped. I'm hoping to see if I can get that valve out tomorrow morning & then go to the store to see if I can find a match or see if it needs washers or a new seat or whatever. I may even see if cleaning it helps any. I'll also have to see if I can get the wall panel off with a flathead screwdriver instead of a prybar since my friend hasn't returned my tools yet (I'm getting a bit aggravated about that).

 

[Zanne]

Moved the furniture out of the way & tried to remove the wall panel but couldn't get it off. My brother even tried. But we were trying with a flathead screwdriver as my prybars are over at my friend's house. He also has my jigsaw & reciprocating saw attachments. He's running to the bank for his grandfather & then will go gather up my tools for me so I can come get them. Picked up an Oatey Center Access Panel so that once I get my tools back, (hopefully tonight or tomorrow), I'll be able to cut a hole in the wall to access the plumbing. That was the largest one they had so I got a 2nd smaller one to access the showerhead. I'll post pics & updates later.

 

[TomFOhio]

Zanne, are you trying to repair this faucet or replace it.

 

[Zanne]

Zanne, are you trying to repair this faucet or replace it.

For now I'm trying to repair it if possible. I want to open up the wall to see if there are shutoffs inside-- which might make things easier for me. need to figure out a good way to add shutoffs if they don't already exist. Might be a little tricky with the CPVC being so rigid & not having much room for movement. Not sure if I can do it without disturbing the valves. I'm open to suggestions.

In the long run I plan to convert over to a single lever Moentrol valve & handle, but I will need to order a new shower unit for that. Probably will be quite a while before that with all the things on my "to do" list. I wish I could replace it now, but whoever installed the original thing put the handles so close to the tub spout that I can't use one of those remodel escutcheons to cover the holes.

The good news is I finally got my tools back from my friend, but I got them very late in the evening so I'm exhausted & need to sleep before I tackle that. I'll take a crack at the wall in the morning once I figure out the right height for the access panel. I want to have it at the right height for a single handle lever higher up, but still be able to access shutoffs. I hope I'm making sense. Half asleep right now.

 

[chiraldude]

I recently had a similar problem except one of the valves wouldn't shut off. I tried to remove the handles but corrosion required me to break them off and I couldn't find replacements. So I ended up cutting a hole in the wall and replacing the valve. I drilled a new hole, installed a single handle valve then plugged the old holes. Everyone now loves the pressure compensating valve that keep the water the same temp when the toilet flushes. Finding covers for the holes can be a pain depending on how picky your decorator is about looks. You can find chrome but I just used those wall mount doorknob wall stops and some gummy double stick tape rated for outdoor use.

 

[Zanne]

Getting coverplates and such for the existing green tub thing would be like putting lipstick on a pig.

I'm currently debating he right height to place the access panel. My friend forgot to return one of the crucial attachments for my tools so I need to search around & find another drill in my house. I need to be more organized. I think the ideal height for the new handle would be more than 14" higher than the existing handles. I suppose worst case scenario I could get a taller access panel in the future. There is a 14"x29" panel.
I'm waiting for my brother to wake up so he can help me move some furniture.

 

[chiraldude]

I simplified to keep the post short. I had a shower stall with 2 handles. Height was about right so no need to change. I put the new valve in one of the holes and capped off the other. It was off white so color match of the cover was pretty close.
In your case, repairing the existing valves is probably best. Relocating the height should be part of a total tub-shower replacement project.

 

[Mr_David]

They make a cover plate to cover the old 3 hole when installing a single control faucet.
use them when I have to go through the front. Requires some soldering skill if you don't want to burn the place down yet.

 

[chiraldude]

This would have come in handy for me. I cut a hole in the lath n plaster on the other side to install the new valve.
Not hard to find on Amazon but nobody at Lowes or the Depot will know about it.
What do the screws go into to hold it in place?

 

[Zanne]

Thanks, guys!

The coverplate will not fit because the monkeys who installed it in the first place put the handles so close to the spout that the bottom of the coverplate would hit the spout. The cold water one is actually closer than the hot water one & they are too low. The new setup will have the handle higher up. Still trying to get my mother to sit in the shower seat to show me where it is comfortable to reach, although I have an idea. Things have been hectic with the power outages & I had to run errands today. Plus, I'm a procrastinator & really need to get myself in gear & do stuff.