To Ferrule or Not To Ferrule

[LearningToBeHandy]

This debate comes up for me occasionally in maintaining a home and a few rentals.

When I'm replacing a compression based shutoff sillcock with a compression ball valve, is it ok to use the old compression nut & ferrule already in place?

This compares favorably from a time stand point vs using the fancy puller tool or the "I bet I can cut it just enough to pry it off" pray and hope method. The puller tool I thought would be a good send but that's kinda a pain too and scrapes the compresses ferrule across the length of the copper. That does clean the copper but I'm always a little apprehensive about what it might have done to the diameter too.

I saw a handyman reuse just the old compression nut with ferrule in place and that seems to have worked but then I wonder about tolerances and fit and all that. What does everyone else do, both professionally and practically?

 

[havasu]

I've found that about half will leak when using the existing ferrule and back compression cap. As they say..."Do it right, and do it only once" applies.

 

[SandburRanch]

The fitting is called compression and that's what happened , and if installed correctly ( 1 revolution of nut after thread slack is removed ) the copper has been compressed where the ferrule is and that's why a puller is needed . Either cut the used portion of tubing off or leave the old ferrule on and re-use . The reason pre-used leak is because there is probably at least a dozen manufacturers around the world that are not held to any standards or minimal standards and what you get is a roll of the dice .

 

[Geofd]

I've used nuts and ferrules over they are pressed onto the copper put a dab of pipe dope on the ferrule when tightening

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

I've had to reuse every ferrule in my house, nine of them, when going from standard multi-turn to quarter turn ball valves. One or two I really had to crank down on to get a reseal but it eventually did work. I believe someone on here, maybe Twowax, recommended a turn or two of Teflon tape possibly as well. My apologies to TWX if I got that quote wrong.

 

[SandburRanch]

On the job in the NG industry only stainless was used up to 1,000 lbs. , always re-use the ferrule and were expected to not leak period . My only brand experience was Swage Lock or Parker . With copper and brass i look at those as a swedging operation as if i was reloading rifle brass cases and put a drop of oil on the ferrule and nut threads .

 

[Twowaxhack]

On the job in the NG industry only stainless was used up to 1,000 lbs. , always re-use the ferrule and were expected to not leak period . My only brand experience was Swage Lock or Parker . With copper and brass i look at those as a swedging operation as if i was reloading rifle brass cases and put a drop of oil on the ferrule and nut threads .

The compression fittings you used most likely have a two piece ferrule. Some call it a backing ferrule.

It’s a much better fitting. I have a few, I’ll post pics.

 

[SandburRanch]

iir the 2 piece was Swage Lock and single piece was Parker .

 

[Twowaxhack]

iir the 2 piece was Swage Lock and single piece was Parker .

Yeah, in the plumbing industry we’re not allowed to use brass compression fittings on copper tube.

The single ferrule design is crappy compared to the double ferrule design

 

[Bird Doo Head]

The plumbers will probably shoot me for saying this:

If you try to reuse a ferrule and nothing else works, a last resort is to put a very small dab of blue (not yellow) Leak-Lock, by High Side Chemicals, on the fitting side of the ferrule. If it gets on the threads, removing the nut later is more work, but it is removable.

Be conservative. Make sure it doesn't go in the valve or dabs may end up in an aerator or garden hose nozzle. Remove spills on your hands with rubbing (isopropyl) alcohol.

When I worked in an ice plant as a kid, we used to use it for high pressure ammonia refrigerant liquid lines and I did use it once on a very old compression fitting where cutting back the pipe would have been a large undertaking. (In a block wall with a finished other side)

Hope this helps.
Paul

 

[SandburRanch]

Yeah, in the plumbing industry we’re not allowed to use brass compression fittings on copper tube.

The single ferrule design is crappy compared to the double ferrule design

Brass on copper has been successful for several decades , but In the plumbing industry the amount to tighten the brass nut on a brass ferrule to copper is the problem . Ask 10 plumbers and get 10 different answers including a possible shrug or 3 . Ask 20 suppliers how much to tighten and you may get 15 different answers including 5 shrugs . By accidentally reading instructions on a box of 100 ferrules about 40 years ago i saw the answer .

 

[Twowaxhack]

Brass on copper has been successful for several decades , but In the plumbing industry the amount to tighten the brass nut on a brass ferrule to copper is the problem . Ask 10 plumbers and get 10 different answers including a possible shrug or 3 . Ask 20 suppliers how much to tighten and you may get 15 different answers including 5 shrugs . By accidentally reading instructions on a box of 100 ferrules about 40 years ago i saw the answer .

I meant to say …….we can’t use brass compression fittings on natural gas. I assumed that’s what NG stood for in your post #6 above.

We’ve been using compression on copper for water for years .

The typical single ferrule compression fittings a person would buy at home depot is more susceptible to leak if moved or subject to vibration.

It’s just an inferior connection method compared to other methods.

Brasscraft gives instruction on their website on compression torque.
I’m sure Parker and other quality manufacturers do as well.

 

[SandburRanch]

Twowaxhack
Thanks for the clarification .

 

[Twowaxhack]

Here are DK-Lok compression instructions.
https://catalog.dklokusa.com/Asset/pipe-fitting---installation-instructions.pdf

 

[SandburRanch]

Here are DK-Lok compression instructions.
https://catalog.dklokusa.com/Asset/pipe-fitting---installation-instructions.pdf

Thanks
For the 1/4 and 3/8 brass on copper the ferule box said 1 round . I've never had one fail with that and surely i can remember 1 .

 

[Twowaxhack]

Thanks
For the 1/4 and 3/8 brass on copper the ferule box said 1 round . I've never had one fail with that and surely i can remember 1 .

Most inexperienced people overtighten everything to do with plumbing.

They’re scared to have a leak. As an apprentice I was that guy……

 

[Mandalore626]

I used to not replace the existing ferrule. One day I had one leak so I replace them now