Should I fire my plumber? Crooked Pipes, sloppy welds, please see pictures.

[Penelope]

Hi all,

We're doing a full remodel on our house and we thought that we had found a very reliable and professional plumber. Since yesterday, we're no longer so sure. The first indication of problems was when I noticed he plumbed our washer into the septic line rather than grey water. No problem, a fairly easy fix and everyone makes mistakes right? Well, then I noticed that ALL FOUR of the stub lines coming through the subfloor are seriously crooked -- not vertical -- some nearly 1/2" out over 16". And because of the way the holes are drilled through the subfloor and the 4" main septic line underneath, the pipes cannot simply be pushed into a plumb position.

Finally, the abs cement is totally sloppy and after looking at the joints underneath the house the cement is literally hanging off the pipes in drips all over the place. And what's worse, when I look at some of the welds between fittings I don't see a smooth continuous weld, but rather some air gaps between the cement, as if the pipes weren't twisted together when they were fitted. I've attached a picture of this but it's a little hard to make out.

I should mention that all this work is being "tied into" an existing line leading to the septic tank, and the location of this line is fixed because one end exits a concrete slab, and the other exits the side of the house on its way to the septic tank.

So what do you think, should I fire my plumber? This does not look like quality craftsmanship to me. Even if we only consider the issue of all the crooked stub lines -- how typical is this? Should I demand he come back out and correct everything?

 

[johnjh2o]

Although it's not very professional looking I don't see any real problems. The worst looking line coming through the floor appears to be for the toilet, that will be cut off at the floor level for the closet flange.

 

[MasterDan]

I've seen worse...much worse. Give it time.

 

[phishfood]

3rd picture down, can you get a side shot of that? It may be an optical illusion, but the pitch appears to be different between the 2 fittings.

Between that picture and the 4th picture, I see 2 sanitary tees on their back. If those are drains for fixtures, that is an incorrect installation, it should be a combination wye and 1/8 bend. If, however, they are for dry vents, than a sanitary tee will be OK.

Personally, you would never find my piping that far out of plumb, but then I am known as a little over the top with that kind of thing.

Overall, from what little I can see from the pictures, I would say that you are right to be concerned, but without more information I couldn't say that there definitely are major problems.

 

[Penelope]

phishfood,

Thanks for your helpful reply. I have attached a few more images that I hope will shed further light on the issues.

Your first observation is not an optical illusion. The two fittings are at different pitches. Maybe he thought he could cheat with this in order to get the two ends of this section to line up with the existing line? I'm not sure, but this is one of the connections that concerned me when I noticed it did not have a clean, continuous weld of ABS cement. Please see additional picture.

Regarding the use sanitary tees: nothing that you see in any of these images is a vent, everything is a drain line heading to the septic tank. I see there is one combination wye, but that's it. Can you explain why he shouldn't be using sanitary tees?

 

[Penelope]

Although it's not very professional looking I don't see any real problems. The worst looking line coming through the floor appears to be for the toilet, that will be cut off at the floor level for the closet flange.

This line will be ran up to a toilet on the second floor. And even if it was being flushed off, it doesn't seem that such a crooked, non-pumb pipe would offer a very good connection to a toilet flange that needs to be mounted on a level floor.

 

[phishfood]

Sanitary tees with waste flowing through them are only intended to be used when the flow is from a horizontal pipe into a vertical pipe. In that orientation, gravity does the job of directing the flow in the proper direction. Used on their back, a lot of the waste and water will splash back up the horizontal line, instead of out towards the sewer. This will tend to cause stoppages. A combination wye and 1/8 bend does a much better job of directing the flow in the proper direction. Also, a sanitary tee will let a snake turn in the wrong direction when someone is attempting to clean the drain line when it does clog.

In your first picture, the pipe/interface being that far out of alignment is not good. It will leave a sharp shoulder on the bottom of the piping which will tend to collect solids and cause a clog.

In the bottom picture, the piping to the right appears to have backfall, which will cause clogs as well.

Is it the owner of the plumbing company that is doing the install? If it is his employees, then yes, he is still responsible, but maybe he isn't aware of what they are doing under his name. In that case, a phone call directly to him is in order.

Either way, I think you have reason to be alarmed, this doesn't look right at all. Is the plumber licensed?

 

[Penelope]

Sanitary tees with waste flowing through them are only intended to be used when the flow is from a horizontal pipe into a vertical pipe. In that orientation, gravity does the job of directing the flow in the proper direction. Used on their back, a lot of the waste and water will splash back up the horizontal line, instead of out towards the sewer. This will tend to cause stoppages. A combination wye and 1/8 bend does a much better job of directing the flow in the proper direction. Also, a sanitary tee will let a snake turn in the wrong direction when someone is attempting to clean the drain line when it does clog.

In your first picture, the pipe/interface being that far out of alignment is not good. It will leave a sharp shoulder on the bottom of the piping which will tend to collect solids and cause a clog.

In the bottom picture, the piping to the right appears to have backfall, which will cause clogs as well.

Is it the owner of the plumbing company that is doing the install? If it is his employees, then yes, he is still responsible, but maybe he isn't aware of what they are doing under his name. In that case, a phone call directly to him is in order.

Either way, I think you have reason to be alarmed, this doesn't look right at all. Is the plumber licensed?

Phishfood,

Thanks again for your helpful insight. You're right, the pipe at the far right does have a backfall, which is completely insane; I just brought this up with him and he said "oh that's not good, but that's an easy fix". I assume he would just try to bend the pipe... but I'm going to insist it's drilled out.

The owner of the plumbing company is doing this work (I'm going to leave his name out, for now). And yes, he is licensed and supposedly reputable. Not to go off on a tangent, but in retrospect we think he might have a drug or alcohol problem that accounts for his bizarre behavior -- some days he is totally lucid, helpful, and professional, other day he is agitated, unfriendly, and sloppy.

I just spoke with him on the phone, and I asked him to come out and "finish" the work, and make some "adjustments". I indicated that he should bring all the fittings he last used as much of this stuff needs to be replaced. I'll insist those sanitary tees are swapped out for the correct wye. He was completely friendly on the phone and said he'll do whatever necessary to make things right. Clearly I cannot trust him to work alone, so it looks like I'll be there making sure all the work is done correctly until this section is replaced, and based on how he deals with the embarrassment will determine whether or not he touches anything else in the house.

Do you have any idea whether those sanitary tees would be a violation of code in most areas, or just a bad idea? Also, what about that crooked connection -- it seems like any decent inspector would call this out as a weak link in a system.

 

[Zanne]

That is very odd that he's friendly sometimes and sloppy and agitated on others. Could be some bad days and trouble at home, but he shouldn't bring that to work with him (yeah, I know he's human-- but he shouldn't let it affect the quality of his work).

I suggest you start documenting your conversations with him and perhaps get some e-mails or get some stuff in writing in case things turn south. I've found that some people will be very friendly on the phone but its all words and they won't honor their agreements in person.

I'm glad that you'll be there to watch him and make sure he does a good job.
Please keep us updated on how things go.

Also, thanks to phishfood for the info. I wasn't aware of the reasons for not using a sanitary tee for that situation. Its good to know.