replacing shutoff valves

[cl206]

Hi everyone! I am new here and something have been driving me nuts and so i decided to turn to the experts
I am going to be replacing the shutoff valves in my bathroom (1 for toilet and 2 for faucet)

They are angled stop valves which are soldered into the supply tube from the wall and compression fitted on the other end.

My questions are:
1) can i just use a propane torch to melt and remove the soldered joint?

2) the supply tube for the toilet looks easy to reconnect because i have been visiting the plumbing department at home depot so much they think i live there BUT the old supply tubes to the faucet seems to be hard copper directly from the faucet connected to silver colored tubes which is then connected to the stop valve. How should i go about replacing these tubes without removing the entire faucet? (the copper tubes go directly into holes to the faucet) I was thinking maybe cutting it above the joint where the silver copper meets the hard copper and then maybe using a coupling of some type to connect the valve to the remaining copper tube? But it is tight around there.


I will try to get pics up later today and any suggestions/help are greatly appreciated! THANKS!

-charlie

 

[havasu]

Pictures are worth a thousand words. Please post up as soon as possible!

 

[SlowDrip]

It -sounds- like you have the old style chrome supply tubes which should be connected via compression fittings to the copper from the faucet and the shutoff valve. I will wait for pictures to confirm, of course.

I think I have found a way to bypass our corporate firewall to check these forums from work, which will help on days like this where I work from 1-11.

 

[cl206]

Alright here it is:
If I say anything wrong please correct me:

Pedestal sink

Cold shutoff valve from afar:

Cold shutoff valve up close. Notice it has a compression fitting on top and soldered (right?) to the wall supply line. I will be replacing that rusted collar.

here is where the chrome/silver colored pipe is joined to the copper that goes into the faucet:

finally here is how those copper tubes go into the faucet.

My plan is to shut off the main water supply,
loosen the compression fitting on the valve,
heat to loosen the solder fitting?
remove the shutoff valve,

but then what to do with the chrome tube with the copper tube?

I am thinking now if it is completely proper to take the faucet off and just throw away the entire copper/chrome tube and using a flex/braided line. I am somewhat mechanically inclined so I would be open to doing that if it is right (not moving the sink of course). I will definitely have to PB blaster some of those rusted parts. BTW this project gives me a great reason/excuse to get a dremel (that is what I tell my wife!)

Also I have never done anything to this and am not even sure if this was the original set up since the condo was built in 1995.

Thanks and you guys are the best! If everything works out I will post my repair this weekend!

 

[phishfood]

That appears to be a compression fitting there as well. I am thinking the chrome tubes are actually chrome plated copper. If that is the case, you might very well get away with leaving them in place, and just hooking them back up to the new supply stop valves.

If you want to replace them, though, you should be OK with purchasing compression couplings and some soft copper.

 

[havasu]

With the visible rust on the underside of your vanity, it is obvious that you have had some leakage from under the faucet gasket. I would recommend that since you are doing work there any ways, purchase a new faucet and connect it with some flexible stainless steel supply lines directly into your new stop valves. This way, you will have all new service, won't have to worry about old antequated supply lines, and will look clean for a long time.

 

[cl206]

Is it at all possible that I not change the faucet yet? I really rather not replace the faucet yet unless it is damaged or leaking because I have 3 other faucets like that in the house and I am not sure if I can still find the same model.

I am leaning towards taking the faucet out and replacing all the supply tubes with the flex ss tubes. Can I just desolder the soldered joint by the valve by heating and then rocking it loose?

Also, do you guys recommend getting a shutoff valve with both compression fittings or get one just like the current one with the solder end?

thanks again!

 

[havasu]

Phish may have a different thought, but I prefer solder over compression. I just have a hard time crimping the ferrel tight enough not to leak, but loose enough to not to bend the pipe.

 

[SlowDrip]

you wall copper seems pretty crusty. Personally i would probably cut the current shutoff off entirely (as close to the shutoff as possible) and then attempt to clean up the line to the wall. I would use a compression shutoff as a replacement here mainly because there isn;t a lot of pipe to play with, if you mess up you new soldering or if you ever need to replace the new shutoff you may not have enough pipe to work with.

As suspected, the chrome line is a standard compression supply line (both ends) and should unscrew from both the current shutoff and the copper lines above.

The copper lines up top are factory soldered directly into the faucet body and are non-replaceable. Be very careful when removing the chrome lines as they are probably crusted up with residue and the copper is very soft, it is common for people to over-torque the old copper supplies and ruin them.

As for replacing the faucet, I am afraid you are SOL if you want to match it exactly. That appears to be a pre-1995 moen chateau single lever, which has been replaced by the slightly more curvy CA4621 and CA4601 chateaus.

 

[cl206]

you wall copper seems pretty crusty. Personally i would probably cut the current shutoff off entirely (as close to the shutoff as possible) and then attempt to clean up the line to the wall. I would use a compression shutoff as a replacement here mainly because there isn;t a lot of pipe to play with, if you mess up you new soldering or if you ever need to replace the new shutoff you may not have enough pipe to work with.
.

SD, wouldn't I have more wall pipe if I try to unsolder that joint instead of cutting?

Also u are absolutely right, it is a moen. I didn't even realize it until yesterday but I have a total of 5 fixtures with that moen knob. Right now I am thinking just changing the valve and seeing how that goes. If the supply lines are in horrible shape, that can be next.

thanks for all your inputs everyone!

 

[SlowDrip]

if you can get the old shutoff off with heat then you would have more pipe for sure, but it might not be in the best shape. you could always try that first and then cut it back if you can't sweat it off.


The only reason i recommend using a compression shutoff here as opposed to a solder one (which are better) is that you don't want to make future repairs a nightmare for yourself. If you can get the old valves off with heat then by all means solder a new one on instead of compression.

 

[cl206]

if you can get the old shutoff off with heat then you would have more pipe for sure, but it might not be in the best shape. you could always try that first and then cut it back if you can't sweat it off.


The only reason i recommend using a compression shutoff here as opposed to a solder one (which are better) is that you don't want to make future repairs a nightmare for yourself. If you can get the old valves off with heat then by all means solder a new one on instead of compression.

I think I am going to follow ur advice on trying to sweat it out first. I am a little on the fence about whether to go both compression ends or just like the original (one comp and one solder end) but I might lean toward the sweat end for the wall because I will be most likely moving out of this townhouse in the year I hope . Not because of the plumbing of course

Thanks! I will definitely post back when this is hopefully done successfully.

 

[cl206]

What a weekend. First time ever doing real plumbing.
Here is what happened:
My plan was to change all three shutoff valves in my lavatory room and I tried to sweat the toilet shutoff valve first and guess what? I didn't realize it was a one piece valve with the 5 inch extension! Talk about a NEEEEWBIE mistake. I actually ended up cutting the valve off before realizing this and it was a nightmare for a couple of hours because the left over clean copper tube was like only 3 inches from the wall (after I decided to cut off the 5 inch extension) and it was in bad shape. I thought for sure it was going to leak when I got the compression fitting valve on but I tightened it really good and believe it or not, because I was desperate, used a good amount of JB weld and IT DID NOT LEAK! It doesn't look too bad but I am still embarrassed to post a pic of that.

Next was the sink valves. I was able to sweat the shutoff valves off. I started with flexible copper yesterday and used a compression fitting to join the two copper lines and it leak just a bit, so this morning I decided to change to the SS flexible tube and it worked. I was pretty proud of myself and here are the pics:

When tightening the fittings, I used the hand tighten it first and then go another 3/4 turn with the crescent wrench. If it still leaked, tighten a little at a time and it worked.

Today I also did two other toilet valves and from the mistakes I learned yesterday I was able to do it in like 2-3 hours which for me was great! I used the ss flexible tubes and all compression fittings (except the end that goes into the toilet tank of course). Had no trouble sweating the 2 old 5 in extension with the valves off.

All in all it was a success in my mind. Absolutely no leaking.

Stuff I learned/did that for me was notable hehe:
1) Watch out for the 5 inch extension on some shutoff valves. You really want to sweat that off and not cut. It took me a while to realize that they used that for cosmetic reasons (so all the chrome matches!)
2) A pipe cutter is a cool tool (I can see the pros going )
3) I did use the dremel 4000 I got on Friday and it saved my ass several times. If you really want to know what I did with it let me know
4) I used a flame protector I got from HD and it was SO USEFUL when I was using my fat max propane benzo. Don't want to be burning any thing down
5) I went with the 1/4 turn shutoff valve because the guy from HD told me it was better than the multiturn, so I was like OK! So far it works!

And thanks for all the suggestions/comments everyone! I have decided that if the JB weld spot (only the very first toilet) starts to leak, I am going to get my father in law to come over and we will open up the wall and go to town!

-charlie

 

[havasu]

Looks great. You were also very smart to use the 1/4 turn valves!

 

[cl206]

Looks great. You were also very smart to use the 1/4 turn valves!

Thanks Havasu! BTW I tightened the fittings pretty good (but not too crazy tight). I used the markings on the nut to help me know that I went maybe 3/4 to 1 full turn. I used a marker earlier and was like hey what are those diamonds on the nut . I gotta believe with it not leaking at all and me following the rules it will be good, but will there be signs of leaking before the compression fit if ever just bust lose? I didn't use any pipe dope or compound or tape in the fittings because as I understand it, it is the compression ferrule's job with the nut to "compress" into the pipe right?

-charlie

 

[havasu]

Yeah, you did correct....just dry. I like to place a paper plate under the valves for a week, and check on them daily, just to make sure a leak doesn't start. I did have one develop a pretty serious leak after about one month, which I can't understand why, but being the valve to my garage sink, it didn't hurt anything.

 

[SlowDrip]

Looks good man. the guy at HD was correct, quarter turen ball valves are much better than the old gate style. They don't have a washer that will break down over time, nor to the stick as much as an unused gate will.

I always tell people to go hand-tight and then a half turn with a wrench when doing compression, mainly because most people tend to "give it some extra" because they always know best.

havasu's idea of a paper plate is a good one. Alternately if you have some sand kicking around (hey...I know I always do) put some of that on a paper plate. Any drips that dry before you see them will leave a splash mark in the sand.

 

[cl206]

Thank SD, so far no drips and I have been carefully touching and wiping to check as well.