Repeated Basement flooding (complicated)

[Gini]

Apologies for the length--it is a complicated problem!

I bought a 150 yr old home about 7 years ago. There was an issue that the seller believed was fixed. She was wrong. It has a B-Dry system and a trench dug around the concrete floor. It has two sump pumps in two sump pits. They drain through a pipe under the driveway and away from the house.

The well pump for the house is right behind and very close to the house. Probably began as a dug well. When it rains hard, or even twice when it hasn't rained at all, water pours into the basement from a 3/4 inch PVC pipe that runs from the well into the basement (I presume that's where it's coming from). Three times I have had sump pump failures and resulted in 5 feet of water in the basement that our fantastic fire company has pumped out for me. I've had the electric panel box raised and had to replace the water heater.

Any ideas how to keep that water from coming into the basement? Some suggested to just cap the pipe, but I thought that would put too much pressure on the stone foundation. My nephew thought a trench from the top of the well and downhill away from the house would work. Fire co guys thought there might be an artesian? well under the house...not sure about that.

Second question...what is a good (inexpensive) utility pump for this application in the meantime?

I am widowed with limited income. My son lives in the house.
Thank you for considering my problem.

 

[MicEd69]

You need to find out where the 3/4" PVC pipe originates. Does it just come through the wall and end above the floor?

The B-dry system is a perforated square "pipe" below the basement floor around the interior basement wall. It drains into the sumps and keeps ground water from entering through the walls and should eliminate any concerns from external water pressure on the basement walls. So, your issue is totally with the sump pumps.

However, are you sure you mean 5 feet of water? You didn't say how large a basement you have, but if you have a small house of 1,000 sq. ft., you are saying you have over 37,000 gallons of water in the basement. A good-sized sump pump pumps around 4,500 gallons per hour, so two would be 9,000 GPH. A garden hose can deliver around 600 gallons per hour. How long does it take to fill up your basement to 5 feet?

 

[Gini]

Thank you for your response!

A couple of things. The PVC pipe is 3 or 4 inches dia. I'm sorry for the confusion..

Yes, it comes in through the basement wall, not far below the joists

Yes. I mean abt five feet +/- of water. Close. The fireman was quite surprised about that, too. Chief came out first to see if they really needed their pumper, and was pretty shocked at the water depth when he opened the Bilco door. It took that pumper quite a while to get that water out. They had to close the road and drain it over the road.

Do you mean that the B-dry trench is something of an interior french drain and will take the pressure off the outside of the stone wall? Gosh, if I could just cap that pipe! I do not know why it's there unless to take pressure off that wall. I happened to be in the basement one day and saw the water coming out of that pipe. It was running full blast.

The house sits at the bottom of a pretty steep slope. Above that slope are several houses, and there is a drainage ditch leading out of that small development into a ditch about halfway up the slope and then drains down behind the house. The borough has a right of way through our property to that drainage ditch/pipe.

Suggestions for HP for the sump pump(s)?

 

[MicEd69]

OK, just to be sure that there is a B-Dry system in place, you should see newish concrete around the entire perimeter of the basenent wall that externds 1 to 2 feet into the basement. Under that concrete is a perforated square "pipe" that takes any water that comes into it to the sumps. Any water that is in the grounds along the walls can flow down under the foundation and enter that "pipe". And if that 3-to-4-inch pipe is just below you floor joists, it is not relieving any water pressure that is being exerted to your basement walls, because any water below that point is creating pressure on you walls now. Again, I would investigate the origin of that 3-to-4-inch pipe, because it really seems pretty strange!

What kind of sump pumps have you been using? Pedestal or submersibles?

Are both sumps and sump pumps operating at approximately the same level?

What kind of failures have you had with the sump pumps you have installed? Mechanical breakdowns of the pump, motor failures, power failures, pump switch failures?

You do have a strange situation. You don't want a huge pump that can pump more water than can come in once everything is resolved. If you have a sump pump too large, it will cycle on and off too frequently and resuklt in premature pump failure. So, if the main source of flood water is that 3-to-4-inch line, and that line can be capped, then you need to determine what your "normal" maximum influx of water will be.

 

[Gini]

Thank you so much!

I just spoke to my son, and he thought the pump burned out under the load. I replaced one of those pumps before. He said the other pump wasn't working. It looks like I'm into buying two pumps. Yes, the sump pits are next to each other. They are submerged. I guess the best (expensive) thing would get two new pumps, one with a battery backup?

I don't remember what brand they are. They were plumber installed. I'm not there often enough to pay attention to those things, and my son isn't handy at all.

The basement wall was covered about halfway up with some kind of plastic board...It is white and is pretty sturdy. I've never looked behind that board, as there is no convenient place to do that. After I bought the house, B-Dry said they will no longer warrant the system.

I never thought about the matter of that pipe being so far off the floor, but I can definitely see your point re the water pressure. That will be a load off my mind to get that capped. I'd ask the prior owner if I weren't so um...unappreciative, that I wasn't told the extent of the water issue.

 

[MicEd69]

Well with B-Dry saying they won't warrantee their system, as you are not the original owner I assume, at least you know there is one there.

I would still like to know where that 3-to-4-inch line comes from but capping it shouldn't hurt the integrity of your basement walls.

A battery backup pump is always advisable., but not totally necessary unless you've had routine power failures. I'm not sure how the two sumps are connected, or how the discharge lines from the two pumps are connected. To suggest a proper pump selection, we will need to know the elevation differences between the pumps and the discharge point, the highest point of the discharge piping, the length of the discharge piping, and the size.

 

[JEG in Raleigh]

This is just a crazy guess at something to check, but you said that the well was close to the house and that it may originally have been a hand-dug wel, subsequently drilled deeper. If there is no well casing, I wonder if for some reason, that pipe is running from near the top of the well hole to and through the foundation wall of the house, and the static water level in the well is rising to the point that it reaches that PVC pipe.....as if the PVC pipe is acting like an overflow. I have no idea why a setup like that would be in place, but I'm just wondering. From your description of the location of the house and water flowing through that pipe when it rains heavily, I'm wondering if your water table is high and if something like I described is happening.

 

[Gini]

This is just a crazy guess at something to check, but you said that the well was close to the house and that it may originally have been a hand-dug wel, subsequently drilled deeper. If there is no well casing, I wonder if for some reason, that pipe is running from near the top of the well hole to and through the foundation wall of the house, and the static water level in the well is rising to the point that it reaches that PVC pipe.....as if the PVC pipe is acting like an overflow. I have no idea why a setup like that would be in place, but I'm just wondering. From your description of the location of the house and water flowing through that pipe when it rains heavily, I'm wondering if your water table is high and if something like I described is happening.

I don't think it's crazy. But, I don't know why the water table would be that high without another inlet source…except maybe an old well under the house?

Wait... I know of an old house that has a well under the house. I presume it was used for the house at one time, but has water in it. When that concrete floor was put down, they left that well exposed. Hmm. I wonder if there was one here, and they cemented over it when they laid our concrete floor.

Here's the email my friend sent me when I asked her about the well in her basement:

"It was for house water before plumbing. Then for wash day water. It was a natural spring. After the hand pump outside the kitchen was capped we had spring water pop up in the yard. it never overflowed in the basement. there was an over flow pipe I assume that sent it out. When we dipped it out, it would refill quickly to the same level."

 

[wpns]

That’s just weird, I’m not sure how you burn out a pump under load, but I’ve had a sump pump running for a couple of months now, and it’s fine. Also, what that water is and where it’s coming from and how it’s getting into your basement sounds really bizarre. If you can’t figure out where it’s coming from, I would either cap it off or continue the pipe out the other side of your basement and let it run back outside.

 

[Gini]

I don't think it's crazy. But, I don't know why the water table would be that high without another inlet source…except maybe an old well under the house?

Wait... I know of an old house that has a well under the house. I presume it was used for the house at one time, but has water in it. When that concrete floor was put down, they left that well exposed. Hmm. I wonder if there was one here, and they cemented over it when they laid our concrete floor.

Here's the email my friend sent me when I asked her about the well in her basement:

"It was for house water before plumbing. Then for wash day water. It was a natural spring. After the hand pump outside the kitchen was capped we had spring water pop up in the yard. it never overflowed in the basement. there was an over flow pipe I assume that sent it out. When we dipped it out, it would refill quickly to the same level."

That’s just weird, I’m not sure how you burn out a pump under load, but I’ve had a sump pump running for a couple of months now, and it’s fine. Also, what that water is and where it’s coming from and how it’s getting into your basement sounds really bizarre. If you can’t figure out where it’s coming from, I would either cap it off or continue the pipe out the other side of your basement and let it run back outside.

I think you're right about running it back outside and away from the house.
The thing is that the former owner was probably just as stumped because they put the B-Dry system in thinking that would take care of it.
Anyway, I really, really appreciate all you guy's input. I think we have enough ideas that at least one of them is likely the problem. You have been very helpful. Thanks so much!

(Any further input would be appreciated.)

 

[wpns]

Send pictures, sometimes someone will see something that you missed.

 

[Gini]

Send pictures, sometimes someone will see something that you missed.

Thanks...I wish I could... I don't live in the house, my disabled son does. It's about a half hour from me. I'll see if he can get me some, and I'll post if he does.

 

[dmmsr]

You can always have someone come out with a camera to put in the line and locate where it goes during a dry day. This might give you a better understanding of what it is for.

 

[Gini]

You can always have someone come out with a camera to put in the line and locate where it goes during a dry day. This might give you a better understanding of what it is for.

Great idea... Thank you.