Plumber left me with no hot water!

[JG plumbing]

True, this is why power-vented heaters have plastic blower housings, direct vented condensing units do not dilute exhaust.

I'll just add to this. A high efficiency furnace or water heater passes the hot gas through the heat exchangers more than once. That is why they are called high effeciancy. A "high efficiency" boiler or tankless heater do not do this. They modulate the flame this is where they get that "high efficiency" type status. These are different systems and different venting needs. PP or cpvc can supposedly vent them, but again we'll see on that.

 

[Duckbutter]

I'll just add to this. A high efficiency furnace or water heater passes the hot gas through the heat exchangers more than once. That is why they are called high effeciancy. A "high efficiency" boiler or tankless heater do not do this. They modulate the flame this is where they get that "high efficiency" type status. These are different systems and different venting needs. PP or cpvc can supposedly vent them, but again we'll see on that.

Yep, primary and secondary exchangers, some even have copper for the primary where copper has a high thermal conductivity, then steel for the secondary because the condensate that occurs on final pass has a high PH....will rot copper.

Some used Aluminum, but aluminum pits.

I also agree on the future of CPVC for venting, I suspect the same results will occur over years, but for the time being I use sched 80 CPVC, I avoid that other grey thin-walled premade venting that some MFG's recommend.

There was a takeaway from other industries over the last 15 years, self regulation is a bad idea, the 08 crisis and the opioid crisis taught us that.

The same applies to us, and any industry.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The housing crash was the governments fault, they allowed loans to people without proof of income, the government actually encouraged it. Barney Frank specifically.........isn’t he from Massachusetts ?

Opioids have always been highly regulated, yet there was and still is a problem.

Plumbing doesn’t need anymore government control, the opposite, we need less government control.

I guess we all have an opinion.

 

[Duckbutter]

The housing crash was the governments fault, they allowed loans to people without proof of income, the government actually encouraged it. Barney Frank specifically.........isn’t he from Massachusetts ?

The government removed Glass-Steagall, created the CFMA, which allowed commercial banks to merge with investment banks and turn their own loans into derivatives without restrictions or limits on long/short positions.

They then paid off ratings agencies to lie about those derivatives as "triple A", when in fact they were comprised of no income loans.

Opioids have always been highly regulated, yet there was and still is a problem.

The FDA eased oversight on Pharma roughly 16-17 years back to make it easier/faster to get new life saving drugs through trials, they left more to their discretion. In turn, Pharma's told MD's to specifically say drugs like Oxycodone or Vicodin were not addictive.

Plumbing doesn’t need anymore government control, the opposite, we need less government control.

I guess we all have an opinion. ✌

I'm curious, are you licensed?....what state?

 

[Twowaxhack]

The government removed Glass-Steagall, created the CFMA, which allowed commercial banks to merge with investment banks and turn their own loans into derivatives without restrictions or limits on long/short positions.

They then paid off ratings agencies to lie about those derivatives as "triple A", when in fact they were comprised of no income loans.



I'm curious, are you licensed?....what state?

I’m not a licensed real estate agent or lawyer.

I just know a little history on opiods and the housing crisis.

Neither was caused by lack of regulation. The banks played by the rules, they had to make loans or risk discrimination lawsuits.,

Im a licensed plumber in three states.

 

[Duckbutter]

Welp, you got me to chase you partially down a Rabbit-hole, not interested in your politics or personal jabs.

Suffice to say we differ on how we respect our trade, leave it at that.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Welp, you got me to chase you partially down a Rabbit-hole, not interested in your politics or personal jabs.

Suffice to say we differ on how we respect our trade, leave it at that.

You brought up the 2008 crash and opioids.

I have a different opinion.

I haven’t made a personal jab, I just disagreed with you.

To some, if you disagree with them that is a personal attack, it seems to me that’s how you’re taking it.

This trade doesn’t respect itself, you’ll find that out one day if you stay in it long enough. That’s why there’s a handful of codes......Jimmy didn’t like your code so he makes a new one.

This gets repeated and you end up with 3-4 codes then each state and county start deleting and adding things.


You’re on a DIY plumbing forum and you advocate for a plumbing code that prohibits a homeowner to replace a water heater.

That makes zero sense to me.....

If you don’t want to have the discussion that’s fine but I haven’t made any personal attacks.

 

[Riickk]

You could even put 2 small tank type in series if you can't get a bigger one into the crawl space.

The way I understand it, to get double the output amount, you need to carefully put them in parallel, same length pipes from input tee and to output Tee. In series, I'm told, you get nowhere near double the output.
.

 

[Clag]

Hello All, thanks for the great information. I’m reading all and learning a lot. If it helps, the new water heater is high efficiency A.O Smith which is one of the reasons why the plumber says he can’t vent it with the furnace. He is correct that the instructions say to not vent this particular kind with other appliances or vents. I trying to see if I can find a standard efficiency tankless instead, which I’m assuming may work. By the way, I sadly learned that you can’t take a shower AT ALL without a water tank hooked up. I thought I could at least take a cold one.

 

[Clag]

Sounds fishy, get quotes or paid advice and suggestions from several other plumbers.
Meanwhile, wash in the sink with hot water from the stove, or at a friend’s or neighbor’s house, do laundry at a laundromat.

Thanks, I learned that the showers don’t work at all without the water tank.

 

[JG plumbing]

Hello All, thanks for the great information. I’m reading all and learning a lot. If it helps, the new water heater is high efficiency A.O Smith which is one of the reasons why the plumber says he can’t vent it with the furnace. He is correct that the instructions say to not vent this particular kind with other appliances or vents. I trying to see if I can find a standard efficiency tankless instead, which I’m assuming may work. By the way, I sadly learned that you can’t take a shower AT ALL without a water tank hooked up. I thought I could at least take a cold one.

What's wrong with the plumber who told you the correct information? Why can't he get you some hot water some way? Aren't you paying him to figure this out for you?

 

[Clag]

Unless I’m mistaken can’t you get a high efficiency condensing unit that vents with PVC? Surely that venting is pretty easy.

What you just said sounded like a foreign language, lol. But I can tell you that the new unit is a high efficiency A.O. Smith, which the plumber said I’d part of the problem, as high efficiency can’t be vented with anything else he said.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You have pressure balanced valves and if there’s no hot pressure there will be no cold flow.

You could cross the piping over and connect hot/cold piping together and that would allow your showers to run cold water

 

[Clag]

The problem is that you absolutely cannot vent a natural (draft, gravity) vent with a positive pressure direct vent or power vent.

Fault for this falls on whomever installed it that way to begin with.

When the blower kicks on from the tankless it will overwhelm the heater's draft vent and push CO back into your home.

What you found online is likely connecting two natural vent fixtures to a single common vent, that's fine as long as the common vent is sized correctly.

If the tankless is in a crawlspace, he can potentially run it to the outside of the house depending on mfg specs for max vent length.

Thanks for the education. He did look at running it out the wall beneath the deck, but my windows and doors seem to be preventing this. I have a wall of windows and sliding glass doors on the back, then windows and another deck on the west side of the house. While there are no windows on the east side, the crawl space on that side is difficult to get to. It’s really crazy the way the house is built.

 

[Twowaxhack]

How much hot water do you need ?

 

[Duckbutter]

Thanks for the education. He did look at running it out the wall beneath the deck, but my windows and doors seem to be preventing this. I have a wall of windows and sliding glass doors on the back, then windows and another deck on the west side of the house. While there are no windows on the east side, the crawl space on that side is difficult to get to. It’s really crazy the way the house is built.

Most direct vented (both intake and exhaust piped to the outside) condensing appliances will allow as little as 12 inches from any door/window because there's no pressure displacement (Air mixed with that exhaust won't be sucked into an open window to displace outgoing exhaust)

The pitfall in your case is steam from the exhaust being visible outside a window or glass door on colder days.

Power-vented (vs direct vented) appliances only vent exhaust, the intake is inside the home which will suck air back in through a window, those vents usually require 3 or 4 feet from windows/doors.

As for electric tankless, don't do it, trust me, you'll probably need a sub-panel off your home's panel, and the lights will dim any time you use it, might as well go with an electric tank type, which will require a 40 amp circuit vs 100+ amps for a tankless. either option will require an electrician, but the 40 amp/tank option is less money.

I know it may seem trivial, but the way your old tankless was vented was a serious hazard, especially where it sounds like it was power-vented (intake in the same room as the tankless and furnace), I'd also make sure there's a CO detector in the mechanical room with the heater. If the tankless was running while the furnace was heating, CO was being sucked back in through the furnace's vent hood to displace the tankless blower's negative pressure.

The timing of your install was an "ouch" (Saturday, supply's closed), but I'll wager your plumber will call tomorrow with a pretty close explanation to what I just said.

As for a "standard efficiency" draft vent tankless, not sure they exist, but if they do they likely require a wait to be shipped, a very uncommon item. the alternative would be an ordinary tank type, but the entire PVC vent going all the way to the connection to your furnaces common vent would have to be replaced with galvanized pipe.

Your two best options, IMO, are electric tank, or direct vented tankless.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Tank type water heaters require a 30 amp breaker typically. In the free world anyway.

 

[JG plumbing]

I don't see why the plumber can't run a seperate vent. Dill some holes. Maybe you'd need someone to build some soffit to cover it up later.

 

[Duckbutter]

I don't see why the plumber can't run a seperate vent. Dill some holes. Maybe you'd need someone to build some soffit to cover it up later.

From what she says, her plumber had an issue with picture windows/glass sliding door on that side of the house.'

I mentioned that direct vents require as little as 12 inches clearance from windows, assuming there's a sill below the windows with enough room for snow clearance, he's in Chicago, likely requires upwards of 36" above grade.

Edited, forgot the O/P is a "she" - "Maria"

 

[JG plumbing]

From what he says, his plumber had an issue with picture windows/glass sliding door on that side of the house.'

I mentioned that direct vents require as little as 12 inches clearance from windows, assuming there's a sill below the windows with enough room for snow clearance, he's in Chicago, likely requires upwards of 36" above grade.

Through the roof