Need a pump recco for a shallow spring but with a 550 foot run

[Jgalt52]

I 'm restoring a spring on a property that that had a 1" plastic water pipe installed by a prior owner. I just finished pouring a new 5'x8' spring box where the water is about 14" deep when it fills and runs out. So I've got plenty volume to pump from. Desired max pumping flow is 8 gal/minute.

Using several internet pressure drop calculators, I get a pressure drop at 8 gpm (11-20psi drop) averaging~15psi. The target spigot delivery pressure is 70psi. I'm planning a spring house over the large spring box to hold the pump/controls/filters/bladder tank. I have used WellXtrol Bladder tanks with zero problems over the years and am looking at a 44 gallon model that will likely be over kill for a usage of ~250 gallons/day at the max to hold the cycling down. There is a 10 gauge power line in place, but in total it's about 620 feet from the power entrance box in the garage at the other end of the house. It's hot now at 125v, but I could rewire to 240, but would rather not if there is anyway to use 125vac as it also feeds a garden tool shed.

I am thinking of setting the pressure at the spring tank to cut off at 90-95 psi so that when the flow moves I should have a solid 75-80psi feeding the house (likely with a 70psi pressure regulator just upstream of the house.

Questions:

1. I'm an old-school noob about what's available with today's pumps. I like the idea of what I've read about soft start and constant pressure setups, but being way in the exurbs keeping it simple/economic makes a lot of sense if complex stuff get hard/impossible to get ... but I'm open to something intermediate between the old school pressure switch and megabuck computer control that doesn't much like temp/humidity swings in the back pasture. OTOH ... when the grid isn't available, I'm on a generator ... so a simple/basic soft start sounds particularly good there especially at 620' from the power source. WHAT PUMP WOULD YOU RECCO FOR THIS SITUATION?
2. Do you think a pressure regulator at the house set at 70psi to keep the house pressure acting like city water pressure has any downsides?
3. If I put the pressure reg in, should I maybe put a small bladder tank with it to absorb water hammer with such a long line?

All comments and thoughts welcome!!! (Including out of the box ideas ... I just want to get the best ideas possible for the build :^)

Best regards,
John

 

[Valveman]

I can tell you have done a lot of thinking about this, and I'll bet the spring box looks excellent. However, 14" isn't much depth to work with. Do you have a side outlet? Or, are you planning to go over the edge and drop in a foot valve? If the level of the spring box is constant 14", you might be able to lay a submersible on the bottom and elbow over the edge to get out of the spring box. But I worry about a whirlpool above the suction either way. A 2X2 that is about 5'-6' deep would have been better as you could hang a submersible vertically.

I mention a submersible because they build more pressure, as it is hard to get 90-95 with a jet pump. Although, unless there is some elevation increase in the long pipe run, a pressure switch setting of 50/70 would be more than adequate.

That long of a run limits you to 1HP, even at 230V. You can split off a 115V from the 230V at the pump house, but you need 230V for the pump.

At the higher pressure a 44 gallon pressure tank only holds about 8 gallons of water. That is over 30 cycles a day on the pump.

Soft start is not necessarily a good thing and not that much easier for a generator start. The 620' of #10 wire will be your soft start, as the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower will limit the starting voltage much the same as any reduced voltage soft starter. Any 230V generator larger than 3500W should start a standard 1HP easily. Three wire submersible with a capacitor start control box will start easier, but even a 2 wire motor will start.

I understand your want for strong constant pressure. But you don't want the low end of your pressure range, and you don't want the pump cycling on and off while a pressure reducer is holding the house pressure only down. You are on the right track, but you want a Cycle Stop Valve for the regulator, as it goes before the tank, holds the system at a high constant pressure, and stops the pump from cycling at the same time. Oh yeah, and even at the higher pressure of 50/70 or 70/90 a 10 gallon size tank is all you need with the CSV doing its job. Also stops water hammer, so need need for a bump tank.

I would use a Hallmark 1HP, 33 GPM, 220V submersible pump with a flow inducer laying on the bottom of the spring box. Add a good check valve to the pump then a PK1A kit with a 10 gallon tank and a 50/70 pressure switch.

 

[Jgalt52]

I can tell you have done a lot of thinking about this, and I'll bet the spring box looks excellent. However, 14" isn't much depth to work with. Do you have a side outlet? Or, are you planning to go over the edge and drop in a foot valve? If the level of the spring box is constant 14", you might be able to lay a submersible on the bottom and elbow over the edge to get out of the spring box. But I worry about a whirlpool above the suction either way. A 2X2 that is about 5'-6' deep would have been better as you could hang a submersible vertically.

I mention a submersible because they build more pressure, as it is hard to get 90-95 with a jet pump. Although, unless there is some elevation increase in the long pipe run, a pressure switch setting of 50/70 would be more than adequate.

That long of a run limits you to 1HP, even at 230V. You can split off a 115V from the 230V at the pump house, but you need 230V for the pump.

At the higher pressure a 44 gallon pressure tank only holds about 8 gallons of water. That is over 30 cycles a day on the pump.

Soft start is not necessarily a good thing and not that much easier for a generator start. The 620' of #10 wire will be your soft start, as the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower will limit the starting voltage much the same as any reduced voltage soft starter. Any 230V generator larger than 3500W should start a standard 1HP easily. Three wire submersible with a capacitor start control box will start easier, but even a 2 wire motor will start.

I understand your want for strong constant pressure. But you don't want the low end of your pressure range, and you don't want the pump cycling on and off while a pressure reducer is holding the house pressure only down. You are on the right track, but you want a Cycle Stop Valve for the regulator, as it goes before the tank, holds the system at a high constant pressure, and stops the pump from cycling at the same time. Oh yeah, and even at the higher pressure of 50/70 or 70/90 a 10 gallon size tank is all you need with the CSV doing its job. Also stops water hammer, so need need for a bump tank.

I would use a Hallmark 1HP, 33 GPM, 220V submersible pump with a flow inducer laying on the bottom of the spring box. Add a good check valve to the pump then a PK1A kit with a 10 gallon tank and a 50/70 pressure switch.

View attachment 45888
View attachment 45889

Valveman,
Great information there, that’s a big help.

I like your idea about a submersible on its side. I’m thinking about putting it inside a 6-8” pvc pipe with holes drilled on the bottom half to avoid the vortex pbm.

I had not heard of a CSV valve. That’s clever as heck and lots less maintenance than a 3phase electronics pump. Will study closely. Really appreciate your knowledge and time to help.

When you say I need ac10 gal bladder tank do you mean usable volume or 10gal manufacturer number?

Very good stuff.
Thanks!
John

 

[Jgalt52]

Valveman,
Great information there, that’s a big help.

I like your idea about a submersible on its side. I’m thinking about putting it inside a 6-8” pvc pipe with holes drilled on the bottom half to avoid the vortex pbm.

I had not heard of a CSV valve. That’s clever as heck and lots less maintenance than a 3phase electronics pump. Will study closely. Really appreciate your knowledge and time to help.

When you say I need ac10 gal bladder tank do you mean usable volume or 10gal manufacturer number?

Very good stuff.
Thanks!
John

After reading up on CSVs, I couldn’t help but notice the pissing contest going on. My first read saw a lot of sensible info. Talked to a friend that dropped me a vid of some guy giving 10 reasons not to go CSV … that came across pretty unhinged.

Just to learn, I took an old 120vac 1/2hp Sta-Rite 1” outlet pump and ran it in the new spring box w an Amprobe clipped on. Had 9.2amps and 8gpm at open flow and down to 6A when the valve was fully closed … for roughly a 36% current as the pump was throttled. One CSV vid said he had seen as much as 50% current reduction.

I’m not worried about energy costs, I’m just thinking about getting the design in place that will not drag the end of line voltage to low and harm the life of the pump. End of line volts w pump off is 122.4v and w 9.2amps drawn, the volts drop to 111v. Interesting test.

We ave 2750 gallons/month with 4000gal as an all time high. Given that … would you still recco a 33 gpm 1HP pump?

Would it be better to throttle a 15 gpm pump down to a few gallons than a 33gpm pump? Or no?

Thanks!
John

 

[Valveman]

After reading up on CSVs, I couldn’t help but notice the pissing contest going on. My first read saw a lot of sensible info. Talked to a friend that dropped me a vid of some guy giving 10 reasons not to go CSV … that came across pretty unhinged.

Just to learn, I took an old 120vac 1/2hp Sta-Rite 1” outlet pump and ran it in the new spring box w an Amprobe clipped on. Had 9.2amps and 8gpm at open flow and down to 6A when the valve was fully closed … for roughly a 36% current as the pump was throttled. One CSV vid said he had seen as much as 50% current reduction.

I’m not worried about energy costs, I’m just thinking about getting the design in place that will not drag the end of line voltage to low and harm the life of the pump. End of line volts w pump off is 122.4v and w 9.2amps drawn, the volts drop to 111v. Interesting test.

We ave 2750 gallons/month with 4000gal as an all time high. Given that … would you still recco a 33 gpm 1HP pump?

Would it be better to throttle a 15 gpm pump down to a few gallons than a 33gpm pump? Or no?

Thanks!
John

The crazy guy on youtube is not unhinged, he is a crook. He wants me to pay him many thousands of dollars ransom to remove those liable and slanderous videos. Youtube gets more clicks for fake news than real news, so they are not going to help. He knows he is lying, he is just that kind of guy. Says he is making money from clicks like you just did for him. Can't see any of my comments or any from customers who try to straighten him out. Deletes all the accurate information and positive feedback, of which there is plenty of in the last 30+ years of doing this. Anyway, he is not worth discussing.

Here are several hundred accurate reviews from people who have actually seen a Cycle Stop Valve. Lol!
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

Yes, a 10 gallons actual size tank that holds 2.2 gallons of water is actually more than you need. A Sta-Rite pump is one of the worst for amp drop, as they have a floating stage design that drags the bottom off the impellers and doesn't drop much in amperage. But even a 10% drop in amperage is enough to de-rate the motor load where is can safely pump hot water if needed, so it takes very little cool water to keep the motor happy. A Grundfos pump with a floating stack design will drop 50%-60%. But even that is not saving energy, just making the motor run cooler. The 33 GPM pump is cheap and seems to be lasting very well. Any 2HP pump or smaller will work down to as little as 0.25 of a gallon and stay cool, which is why we have a 1 GPM minimum in the CSV as that is much more than needed.

 

[Jgalt52]

The crazy guy on youtube is not unhinged, he is a crook. He wants me to pay him many thousands of dollars ransom to remove those liable and slanderous videos. Youtube gets more clicks for fake news than real news, so they are not going to help. He knows he is lying, he is just that kind of guy. Says he is making money from clicks like you just did for him. Can't see any of my comments or any from customers who try to straighten him out. Deletes all the accurate information and positive feedback, of which there is plenty of in the last 30+ years of doing this. Anyway, he is not worth discussing.

Here are several hundred accurate reviews from people who have actually seen a Cycle Stop Valve. Lol!
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

Yes, a 10 gallons actual size tank that holds 2.2 gallons of water is actually more than you need. A Sta-Rite pump is one of the worst for amp drop, as they have a floating stage design that drags the bottom off the impellers and doesn't drop much in amperage. But even a 10% drop in amperage is enough to de-rate the motor load where is can safely pump hot water if needed, so it takes very little cool water to keep the motor happy. A Grundfos pump with a floating stack design will drop 50%-60%. But even that is not saving energy, just making the motor run cooler. The 33 GPM pump is cheap and seems to be lasting very well. Any 2HP pump or smaller will work down to as little as 0.25 of a gallon and stay cool, which is why we have a 1 GPM minimum in the CSV as that is much more than needed.

It was pretty clear that guy was psycho. I had not made the connection that you were his target. That’s just nuts. If the cranks and crooks in the country actually would do something productive, we would still be ahead of China. Businessmen have to fight to build a good product, then fight the buggers in the gov and nutballs in the market. Frankly some days I see the point that the elites make that we need depopulation. Not for climate, but for a rational country again

BTW KUDOs on your simulatiion. Having never seen a CSV, it communicated exactly what it was very quickly and got me onboard.

Thanks also for the Groundfos recco. Had not heard of them, but their tech data on their website is a cut above.

Thanks for taking your time to help me get up on this. I always feel better about buying stuff if I can understand it!

Best regards,
John

 

[Valveman]

Valveman,
Great information there, that’s a big help.

I like your idea about a submersible on its side. I’m thinking about putting it inside a 6-8” pvc pipe with holes drilled on the bottom half to avoid the vortex pbm.

I had not heard of a CSV valve. That’s clever as heck and lots less maintenance than a 3phase electronics pump. Will study closely. Really appreciate your knowledge and time to help.

When you say I need ac10 gal bladder tank do you mean usable volume or 10gal manufacturer number?

Very good stuff.
Thanks!
John

Don't use a 6"-8" pipe for a shroud. Use 4" thin wall drain pipe. The smaller the pipe the better the motor gets cooled. Make sure the pipe is solid for the length of the motor. Make holes only on the part that sticks out past the motor.

 

[Jgalt52]

Don't use a 6"-8" pipe for a shroud. Use 4" thin wall drain pipe. The smaller the pipe the better the motor gets cooled. Make sure the pipe is solid for the length of the motor. Make holes only on the part that sticks out past the motor.

Smaller so the flow moves faster. Got it.

 

[Jgalt52]

Smaller so the flow moves faster. Got it.

Caveman,

Let me ask another question.

My spring water contains a fine silt. What kind of filter would you recco for maximizing time between services?

One fellow suggested a sand filter, another suggested just using the larger 5-10 micron cartridge filters in parallel. Sand filters seem interesting for their capacity, but most I’ve searched up don’t come in the pressure range needed.

Tnx!
John

 

[Valveman]

Caveman,

Let me ask another question.

My spring water contains a fine silt. What kind of filter would you recco for maximizing time between services?

One fellow suggested a sand filter, another suggested just using the larger 5-10 micron cartridge filters in parallel. Sand filters seem interesting for their capacity, but most I’ve searched up don’t come in the pressure range needed.

Tnx!
John

I have been called a "Caveman" before, so I guess I can answer this. Lol! Centrifugal sand separators do not work well with fine silt. They need the heavier particles to spin out of solution. A 5 micron filter will stop up quickly. Might use something like the Big Blue filter with a wound cloth filter prior to the 5 Micron.

 

[Jgalt52]

I have been called a "Caveman" before, so I guess I can answer this. Lol! Centrifugal sand separators do not work well with fine silt. They need the heavier particles to spin out of solution. A 5 micron filter will stop up quickly. Might use something like the Big Blue filter with a wound cloth filter prior to the 5 Micron.

Jeez, that’s embarrasking. Auto correct nails me again. Sorry for the flub.

I really like your idea. Never seen a flushable bag filter before. That will save a bunch of headache… cracking a valve is much easier than screwing off a filter case. That would take no time at all and would be a snap to just hit it once every week or put timed solenoid valve on it to pop it daily for one minute.

That’s a really big help. Thank you!!!

(Momma always told me to call on my betters and pay attention, About the best advice I ever got! )

 

[Valveman]

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pentek-H...889363?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=8755

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/23422539777...lp:4429486&itmmeta=01J3E13065GJND12Y3E2TXG3NG

I would use something like a 20 micron first, then a 5 or 1 micron after that.