leak or no leak, could use some help....

[xjakdanylx]

hi,
try to keep it short and to the point,,,

had rudd water heater installed late last year.
just received town water/sewer which showed higher than normal usage.
verified by water meter that it was running with no water usage... believed it showed about .1 cu ft of water in a 2 hour period.

started looking for leaks, dye in toilet. isolating locations etc. but the small dial leak detector on the water meter would still turn every so often.
after doing everything i could think of, i isolated the new rudd hybrid water heater. turned off both shut offs in/out.

for some reason after doing so the meter stopped showing any leakage. left it for 3 hours , took before & after photos, it did not move at all. rest of the house still under pressure.

as soon as i turned on both water heater valves, again the water meter would start moving. while the meter was moving i was close enough to the water heater where i could grab the shutoff and turn it off while the water meter dial was turning. when i did this the dial on the water meter would stop.

note: i also have a oil boiler which is sometimes used for heat on cold days when the mini splits are working hard. it has a tankless coil which was not used and is isolated with shut offs. ( to test for water leak-with new hybrid water off and isolated, i opened and ran the tankless coil on the boiler for hot water. the water meter did not move or show and movement)

water heater showed no signs of leaking. but i contacted the installer. he came out today and basically blamed it on a leak somewhere else in the home.
explained to him that it only shows leakage at the water meter when the new water heater was in the loop. he then took a pressure reading of my water from outside spigot. said it read 100 psi... few moments later it dropped to 40 psi. told me to call the town dpw. they will be out in a week.

any possibility that water is being pushed back out through the meter and then back in showing usage? according to the town our meter does not read backflow or have a check valve.
really appreciate all who took the time to read this, and look forward to any guidance!

Art

 

[Twowaxhack]

If the leak stops with the water heaters cold inlet valve turned off then you have a leak on the hot system. Find it.

 

[GReynolds929]

I agree leak somewhere on the hot water side.

 

[xjakdanylx]

If the leak stops with the water heaters cold inlet valve turned off then you have a leak on the hot system. Find it.

I agree leak somewhere on the hot water side.

i would agree with that, but i also have a boiler system in place that i have turned on for hot water and closed off the new water tank. hot water runs fine throughout the house when i use the oil boiler with no leakage.

also, the water meter shows leak when i open the feed to the new water heater but the out ball valve is closed on it.

any ideas as to why, ill keep looking for a leak, ,but it just makes no sense to me..but im not the expert here.

also of note is that when the leak detector dial on the water meter moves it does not move slow and steady but will remain stopped for between 30-40 seconds and then turn for 3-4 seconds. would that type of situation point me in any direction to find a possible leak? thanks!

thanks!

 

[Twowaxhack]

If you have a leak when you have the outlet ball valve off to the water heater but the leak stops when you close the inlet bell valve then the leak is associated with that water heater/appurtenances.

 

[GReynolds929]

What's your water pressure? The T&P could be relieving itself.

 

[xjakdanylx]

What's your water pressure? The T&P could be relieving itself.

installer of water heater was here, took reading from outside spigot. said it was at 100psi.. but in a few minutes dropped to 40psi. told me to call the town dpw. they will be out in a week.

just another point of information, i currently have been running using my old oil boiler for its tankless hot water. the new hybrid tank is closed to system. using my oil boiler tankless hot water there it no leak detected at all.

found that there is a check valve before the oil boiler. but no check valve before the new hybrid electric water tank. also new water tank was installed 3 ft from main water line into home.

could it be that water pressure changes are causing backflow at times causing the leak detector on the water meter to move when the flow returns causing an increase in my water bill without having a leak in my home?

** fyi, when using the new hybrid water heater the water meter shows a leak of approx 1.5 gallons per hour. using the oil boiler for water shows No leak whatsoever.

really appreciate all your help & guidance.
thanks,

 

[GReynolds929]

The boiler is not tripping its T&P because it's a low pressure system and has a regulator on the water feed line. Do you have a thermal expansion tank on the water heater? Pictures of the water heater would be helpful.

 

[xjakdanylx]

The boiler is not tripping its T&P because it's a low pressure system and has a regulator on the water feed line. Do you have a thermal expansion tank on the water heater? Pictures of the water heater would be helpful.

there is no expansion tank on the water heater. here are a couple of pictures, thanks again for your time...!

 

[TomFOhio]

Do you have any water lines going under ground?

 

[xjakdanylx]

Do you have any water lines going under ground?

no i do not, thanks.

 

[GReynolds929]

There is not a valve on the hot water outlet from the tank visible in your pictures, is there one? The valve shown that is closed is the inlet valve.

 

[RickFlorida]

Why do some water heater installs get an expansion tank and others do not? (I'm obviously not a plumber so I was curious). I had a plumbing company install my last water heater and they put one on there and it's annoyingly large and in the way of stuff so I was wondering why they are used sometimes but on other installs, they are not.

But I agree with most people your leak would be in the hot water side. Interesting theory that the water is running backwards and then forwards again? Do you have super high pressure? I have a heavy duty vacuum pump for one of my hobbies, it's an industrial made one not sold to the public that was used in the jewelry industry for vacuum molds and casting. It creates a super powerful full vacuum and if you don't relieve the pressure, it will make the motor spin backwards which is bad for electrical motors.

So you reminded me of that when you asked if it's possible your water is coming back through the meter twice. Super high pressure might do that?

 

[Twowaxhack]

Why do some water heater installs get an expansion tank and others do not? (I'm obviously not a plumber so I was curious). I had a plumbing company install my last water heater and they put one on there and it's annoying large and in the way of stuff so I was wondering why they are used sometimes but on other installs, they are not.

Expansion tanks are for closed systems where water can’t expand back into the water supply.

Water expands when heated and physically takes up more room. If more room isn’t available the pressure goes up and possibly exceeds the maximum allowed and can damage plumbing and appliances.

 

[RickFlorida]

Expansion tanks are for closed systems where water can’t expand back into the water supply.

Water expands when heated and physically takes up more room. If more room isn’t available the pressure goes up and possibly exceeds the maximum allowed and can damage plumbing and appliances.

The expansion makes sense, but why are some systems closed and others are not then? Does this mean people on wells are open systems and city water service is closed then? Thank you.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The expansion makes sense, but why are some systems closed and others are not then? Does this mean people on wells are open systems and city water service is closed then? Thank you.

Various reasons why a system may be closed. Wells are not open and a well bladder tank isn’t a code acceptable means of controlling thermal expansion although it’s commonly used as thermal expansion control.

You’ll need to google a read about closed plumbing systems and thermal expansion. It’s too much for me to post and there are variables that come into play.

 

[xjakdanylx]

There is not a valve on the hot water outlet from the tank visible in your pictures, is there one? The valve shown that is closed is the inlet valve.

yes there is a shut off valve on the inlet and outlet side of the water tank. at this time both are closed as i am using hot water from my oil tankless system until find a fix for the excess water usage.

waiting on the town dpw to come out an do there checks. they did inform me that there meter does not read backwards so any water being drawn back and forth will only register as excess usage.
just my thought, but think that town water pressure variation is causing the back an forth through my meter.

maybe an expansion tank with backflow prevention may fix the issue?