Is my plumber scamming me?

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Whether the root of this change was economical or driven for green benefit, this will be a short-term toilet, which leaves a greater environmental impact.

Thrifting. No "green benefit" to using less glaze--which is basically glass--on the interior. All of the toilets I've owned in recent memory (Gerber, American Standard, Mansfield and Kohler) of varying models always had a bit less glaze once the bowl narrowed to the throat. The only cleaning issue this raised was at my 2nd home on well water which was extremely hard; the mineral buildup there was greater than on the shiny glaze bowl. Nothing a little white vinegar wouldn't solve a few times a year. We did occasionally use bleach but rarely straight; mostly in the form of Comet or Ajax to get the bowls sparkly after the hard water buildup was removed. Always in the bowl, never added anything to the tank. My current home has all Gerbers, and though our real estate agent kind of frowned on them as a low-cost alternative to a better-known brand, then haven't given any issues.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Abrasive cleaners shouldn’t be used for everyday cleaning and with everyday cleaning you shouldn’t need abrasives.,,

It scratches the finish and then the scratches hold stuff......

Go to the major manufacturers and read the care snd use directions. What I say doesn’t matter to most.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Hundreds of millions of toilets cleaned every single day with Comet and Ajax. Been doing it for 40+ years never an issue. Never a scratch either. They are scratch-free (see labels). Still concerned? Use their [costly] toilet bowl cleaner, or their "soft-scrub" products. The manufacturers don't want you to really use anything. Scrub with a brush daily and they'll stay clean. As if.

Got a Kohler toilet? Of course you could use their "special" cleaners "certified for use on Kohler toilets". Not available yet, coming soon they say...line forms on the left.

I've had three completely different homes with granite counters. The granite people will tell you, you must use some special cleaner on granite. Such nonsense! I used WINDEX for 25+ years on the granite in my last home, and the counters sparkled the day we moved out in the same way they looked the day they were installed. And, I mean EXACTLY. Never bothered to seal them 2x per year like they said either, because it wasn't necessary. They just want you to buy costly unnecessary products.

Those in-tank cleaners are what they all don't want you to use, since it damages the plastic and rubber components inside--flush valve, fill valve, flapper, gaskets, etc. Never used those.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

There is usually a way to clean mineral deposits with liquid products, and The Works and Lime-away are good for carbonates (would not be good for granite countertops). Well water here is hard, but there has been a softener from the beginning. And bleach should not create a problem on a well-glazed surface when diluted. The sodium hydroxide level in straight bleach, which is essentially chlorine gas dissolved into strong sodium hydroxide, will actually dissolve glass, eventually. Diluted bleach will also dissolve glass, but not likely in my lifetime. (and of course I am referring to the glazed interior surfaces, not the unglazed areas) But when the glazed part of the surface is rougher and not highly glazed, it takes a 3-step process of cleaning chemicals and a brush with significantly more effort than is required for the older Cadets (5 so far, 2 in current buildings). I haven't yet resorted to abrasives, and will probably replace before that point. Of course, I'll be back in the same boat (shopping for a new one), but watching the glaze levels carefully. I'm sure that the glazing process requires more energy, but a toilet that lasts 30-100 years is a much better environmental investment than one that doesn't hold up.

When there is an Eco-Drake III, I will still be a skeptic. Once there is both a product issue and a lack of support, my skepticism becomes relatively permanent.

On the use of abrasives, I wouldn't do that, but for another last resort for a different fixture, I had to use one of those cleaning bars that feel like sandstone on an old ceramic bathtub in one house. It was surprising the like-new condition after it was cleaned. The surface was shiny and there were no visible scratches. Perhaps there is a difference also in the quality of the glazing material on some older products. I have also seen very old, well-used cast iron sinks that have seen a lot of abrasive cleaner use.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You can’t see the scratches. They’re there.

I replaced a toilet just the other day because of Ajax use. I’ll take pics when I get back to the office.

Hard water is a water problem, not a cleaning problem. Treat the cause of the problem, the water.

Follow the manufactures cleaning directions to preserve your warranty.

Common sense.....

 

[Jeff Handy]

Off topic, but might be useful to someone.

I had a client who used a regular drain snake on her clogged toilet, not a toilet auger.

The snake left dark stains that would not come out with Comet, Soft Scrub, vinegar, Scotchbrite pad, bowl cleaner, bleach, Magic Eraser, etc.

I sanded them off easily with ultra-fine auto painting type of wet sanding paper.

And she reported that afterwards, less poop stuck to the bowl than before.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

If I wore the glazed surface over a pair of glasses, yes, there may be noticeable scratches, but I chose the word "visible" carefully and made clear that this cleaning method for the tub was a last resort. It was successful enough that replacement wasn't needed.

The clue here is that "soft cleaners" that manufacturers recommend didn't resolve the issue. As I said, this house has had a softener from the beginning, so the water is "treated". The issue isn't scale on the toilet, it is a high-maintenance adherence problem, and other toilets using this water do not have this issue. Borrowing Jeff Handy's comment, I may shut off the valve and try a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser, but again, other toilets don't require this level of cleaning effort.

 

[Twowaxhack]

This lady use Ajax everyday. It built up in the trap way.

I augered it for 15 minutes. Still wouldn’t flush right.,

I replaced it.

She was a clean freak. Flushed the toilet every time she used it.
The lizards just hanging out......never mind him.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Toto offers a coating they apply to the bowl to help things not stick.

You wouldn’t want to use an abrasive cleaner on that.

 

[pakle]

I use the Pumie stick to clean the hard water stains on the toilets. No chemicals. Prior to the discovery of Pumie, had stains that no amount of chemicals or scrubbing could remove for years. 5 minutes of Pumie action, looks like new. If you clean a lot, a bulk pack of pumice stones is probably more cost effective than buying single Pumies.

I have 3 Cadet 3 toilets as well. Fine for me but teenage kid still manages to plug them once in a while. Also just had a toilet tank crack around the handle after 5 yrs. Googling the issue, seems common but luckily American Standard has a lifetime warranty on china and I have the receipt so I sent them pictures of the crack and a copy of the receipt. It took 3 weeks but I got a new tank that had the fill valve, flapper, and flush handle pre-installed. I can do very little plumbing myself, but was able to change out the toilet tank pretty easily.

 

[Zanne]

Toto Drake is a nice toilet. I don't think the ADA height ones come with the Sanagloss (aka Cefiontec coating). The coating actually works great to keep stuff from sticking inside the bowl and trapway (they come with fully glazed trapways) but it does not play well with hard water. I have a lot of iron in my water and it etched a line in the bowl all around at the top of the waterline. If I had a filter it probably wouldn't have happened. Got an ADA height Drake that has to be cleaned a lot more often, but it's still great. That 3" flush valve makes for efficient flushing, even on an eco model. Using abrasive cleaners will scrub the finish off & make stuff stick more.

Drakes are a bit more expensive, but there's a less expensive Toto called the Entrada. Narrower tank and has the same 3" flush valve. Makes it much more efficient. I got one for my friend when we were evacuated at his house following a hurricane. Multiple people in a house with 1 toilet & his grandfather flushed non-flushable wipes and used almost an entire container of them in a single day-- clogged up the old toilet badly. No amount of plunging and augering could get it clear. It was short and terrible to begin with, so I found the Entrada on sale for like $170.

Twowaxhack, I hope the anole enjoyed it's exploration of that old toilet. LOL.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

Zanne, you have found the head of the nail; it is the ADA height one. Our house was built on an aging-in-place design, and guests may visit who are elderly or need ADA support, so we did this for all bathrooms. So, all toilets will have this issue! Is this coating only available factory-installed? It was not an option I was aware of at purchase. Why on earth would an ADA-compliant toilet have such an option omitted??

[with the glazing level, this sounds like it would be needed on all models; I would prefer better glazing. Found more information here:
https://www.solidtoilet.com/toto-sanagloss-vs-cefiontect/]

 

[Twowaxhack]

It seems a portion of the populations toilet won’t stay clean.

Personally I’ve never had an issue with that. I clean mine with a rag and a little dawn dishwashing detergent once a week.

 

[Zanne]

Perplexedplumber, I have no clue why they didn't put Sanagloss on their ADA height models. I think the Drake II *might* be available with that finish on the ADA height ones. The Entrada comes with a "universal" height that is a fraction shorter than ADA but still a comfortable height. I don't know if they still produce the original Drakes. I only had to clean it once every few weeks when we first got it. As the hard water soaked in it went to about once a week. Without that finish, I have to clean the toilet almost every day. But, it did go through periods of time where we couldn't flush because our water was out and we had to use buckets of water to dump down the bowl.

We pulled out our original normal height Drake (will re-use it in another bathroom) and put in an ADA height one. Gets dirty a LOT faster, but then it's the only working toilet in the house so it gets a lot of use.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Some people who have Toilets with a high refill rate requirement will not flush well nor have its proper water spot in the bowl if the ballcock being used doesn’t supply the bowl with enough refill water.


That’s a hot tip

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

Zanne, I learned something new again. After your tip on the coating not being available for the ADA version of the toilet, I looked through my previous notes from the call to the manufacturer last year. I had sent the copy of the receipt and a photo, per their request, but had not received a response. The indication at that time was that there probably wouldn't be any support, which of course is different from not getting a reply. I also looked again for more information on this issue and grew more frustrated by each moment. I called the manufacturer again. Apparently the "big box stores" sell a version of this toilet without the Sanagloss glaze, but this toilet in the ADA version is available with the glaze. Nothing was mentioned in the item description about this, other than that the inside of the bowl was "glazed". In fact, this was a special order, as it wasn't carried in the store at that time. So it wasn't on display, available for comparison. I was assured that the "cotton white" color would match the sinks I chose, and they did. But it is infuriating that a manufacturer with such a reputation for quality would produce a lower end version of their own product without being clear about the value differences between the models. This appears to be a known issue, since the rep. explained that there was a video posted online to help owners learn how to clean their toilets. [I have never needed training on how to clean a toilet before.] The video suggests using CLR, and you are supposed to turn off the water valve and wipe the CLR onto the surfaces and let it sit. This is ridiculous! The main toilet was cleaned about a week ago and it already has a film again.

I forwarded the email from last year to the new rep., who had said that since I didn't get a response to the previous email, a case number had probably not been assigned. I'll be following up on this in a day or so.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Zanne, I learned something new again. After your tip on the coating not being available for the ADA version of the toilet, I looked through my previous notes from the call to the manufacturer last year. I had sent the copy of the receipt and a photo, per their request, but had not received a response. The indication at that time was that there probably wouldn't be any support, which of course is different from not getting a reply. I also looked again for more information on this issue and grew more frustrated by each moment. I called the manufacturer again. Apparently the "big box stores" sell a version of this toilet without the Sanagloss glaze, but this toilet in the ADA version is available with the glaze. Nothing was mentioned in the item description about this, other than that the inside of the bowl was "glazed". In fact, this was a special order, as it wasn't carried in the store at that time. So it wasn't on display, available for comparison. I was assured that the "cotton white" color would match the sinks I chose, and they did. But it is infuriating that a manufacturer with such a reputation for quality would produce a lower end version of their own product without being clear about the value differences between the models. This appears to be a known issue, since the rep. explained that there was a video posted online to help owners learn how to clean their toilets. [I have never needed training on how to clean a toilet before.] The video suggests using CLR, and you are supposed to turn off the water valve and wipe the CLR onto the surfaces and let it sit. This is ridiculous! The main toilet was cleaned about a week ago and it already has a film again.

I forwarded the email from last year to the new rep., who had said that since I didn't get a response to the previous email, a case number had probably not been assigned. I'll be following up on this in a day or so.

I wouldn’t count on an item description at big box.

I also wouldn’t count on a big box store employee being knowledgeable about toilets or plumbing in general. They know just enough to confuse everyone involved.

Toto is primarily sold at showrooms where the sales staff are knowledgeable and will help you with warranty issues if needed. Of course they get a commission for this.

So if you’re price shopping, you’ll never buy from a showroom.

Often the name brand plumbing items at big box were developed to sell at big box or altered in some way with cheaper parts or accessories.

The Toto distributer here had a big fight with Toto about big box being able to sell Toto in his area without him getting a cut. About Walmart selling them too......

 

[Twowaxhack]

I just looked on a home depot website at Toto toilets.,

Wow I can get them way cheaper. Now I see what’s going on.......

I bet Toto is giving the distributor here a cut out of each one that is shipped to this area.

That’s what Delta faucets co does.


Kinda off subject but TOTos side flush run of the mill side flush handle is a piece of crap and so are those Korky ballcock they use.

You hear that ToTo ?????

 

[Zanne]

I got my old Toto Drake in 2008. Handle broke after 5 years. Nice metal on the outside but crappy plastic on the inside that broke off. I replaced it with the handle from another tank that is waiting to be installed (put a decorative universal handle with metal parts in that tank). Another 5 years and that handle broke. So yeah, Toto TripLever sucks. I also replaced the fill valve with one that will keep the toilet from running if there is a leak.
Years later I still have a rough spot on my knuckles where I hit them on the inside of the tank and scraped the hell out of them.

Anyway, pulled the old standard height Drake last year and replaced it with ADA.

PerplexedPlumber keep in mind that there are two versions of the Drake I. One of them has angled sides on the tank and the new ones (I call them 1.5) have a different tank shape. Those might be available with the special gloss. The denotation for that at the end of the product number is usually something like SG. There's also EG for eco & gloss. EF is for eco ADA I think. You can go to a showroom or place like Coburn's and get information or go directly to Toto's website for detailed specs.

Just because a toilet has a glaze doesn't mean it has a special glaze & they don't guarantee the gloss will stand up to hard water. Hard water, according to Toto, can pretty much kill the effectiveness.

 

[SHEPLMBR]

Toto Drake is a nice toilet. I don't think the ADA height ones come with the Sanagloss (aka Cefiontec coating). The coating actually works great to keep stuff from sticking inside the bowl and trapway (they come with fully glazed trapways) but it does not play well with hard water. I have a lot of iron in my water and it etched a line in the bowl all around at the top of the waterline. If I had a filter it probably wouldn't have happened. Got an ADA height Drake that has to be cleaned a lot more often, but it's still great. That 3" flush valve makes for efficient flushing, even on an eco model. Using abrasive cleaners will scrub the finish off & make stuff stick more.

Drakes are a bit more expensive, but there's a less expensive Toto called the Entrada. Narrower tank and has the same 3" flush valve. Makes it much more efficient. I got one for my friend when we were evacuated at his house following a hurricane. Multiple people in a house with 1 toilet & his grandfather flushed non-flushable wipes and used almost an entire container of them in a single day-- clogged up the old toilet badly. No amount of plunging and augering could get it clear. It was short and terrible to begin with, so I found the Entrada on sale for like $170.

Twowaxhack, I hope the anole enjoyed it's exploration of that old toilet. LOL.

There is an ADA version with the "sanigloss" coating. I sell them every day nearly.