Incorrect flue clearance??

[mattaylor]

I think we have found a grey area in the regulations like Chris says.
If you follow the manufactures instructions to the letter (as you should) the terminal is not 300mm away from the brickwork (which I still class as a wall). No where in the instructions does it say about free air or what area would be classed as free air, and if you don't have the information available in front of you at the time explaining what would be classed as free air and what's not, you can only go off what the manufactures instructions say. It depends how you interpret them, and it seems our interpretations are different.

 

[CHRISM]

Note to all, this following post is from a member, not from my position as a moderator.

"Hello, ChrisM."

In this case, as in all other cases in which you choose to comment, you are "The Expert", as you never fail to remind us.

And yes, I am definitely intending this to come across with a patronising bent.

In your reply, you never bothered to give us the technical definition of a wall, versus a chimney. Nor did you explain to us why it would be unsafe to have the boiler vent within 300mm of a wall, but safe to have it within 300mm of a masonry chimney. All I can see is that, once again, you are telling another person that they are stupid, and that you are smart.

After your (repeatedly self proclaimed) 40 years in the business, I don't doubt that you have a lot of knowledge and expertise to share with us. So far, I have yet to see you do anything other than denigrate, with almost no attempt to educate.

I have been in the trade roughly half the time that you have, ~20 years. I have people who have been doing this 30+ years who call me to ask me advice, and I will call a 5 year plumber for advice in a short second, if I think that they know something I don't. And it can and does go both ways. Just this week, I had a contractor with 30 years in the business (I started learning about sanitary drainage on a project he was foreman on) call me to assist him in estimating labor on a historic house repipe. 4 months ago, I called a 10 year plumber I know to ask his advice on commercial fixtures.

Stop being a condescending ass, and start offering constructive advice. We will all be better off.

"Hello Phishfood",


The Boiler Flue was out in `Clear Airspace` - NOT next to a Wall - it is where it is located that makes the difference - IF the Boiler Flue was for example located close to the centre of the Chimney Stack then it WOULD have been too close to a `Wall` - but it is NOT.


There is no `Wall Face` / significant structure close enough to cause any Air Turbulence around the Flue Terminal and disrupt the safe dispersal of the products of combustion or interfere with the Air Intake section of the Flue.


In this case it is WHERE the Flue Terminal is located in relation to the Chimney Stack that determines that the Flue is NOT adjacent to a `Wall`.

I am genuinely not intending to be patronising but I really do think that this should be obvious to anyone who has any Construction / Engineering experience which is why I did not explain further than my original comments about the Boiler Flue being `out in clear airspace`.



Of course I know that Tradesmen and Engineers of every kind have to liaise with each other to find out about technical details and other information that is either not part of their Trade / Engineering discipline or to ask details about installation processes or products that they don`t know about - I discuss technical matters with my Engineers and other Engineers almost every day.

But in `my trades` I would very rarely be seeking information that I did not know other than the specifications for new products - not information on Regulations or Installation methods for the Heating [mainly Wet Heating] - Plumbing & Gas Trades.


I am disappointed to read your opinion of Me - and I doubt whether this message will improve matters.


When I answer questions on here it is often obvious to me that I am corresponding with people who do NOT know much about what they are asking about - this is especially obvious when questions / replies about Gas are concerned.

As I have been a Gas Engineer for over 40 Years [worked on Gas for about 45 Years] and I have every UK qualification for Domestic Gas Utilisation / Installation and an extensive amount of `Non Domestic Gas` qualifications - I have also been involved with the previous UK mandatory Gas Registration body CORGI [pre 2009] - and the UK Health & Safety Executive [HSE] plus the British Standards Institute [BSI] in actually helping to formulate the wording of some of the UK Gas Safety Regulations I am CERTAIN that I am correct in what I wrote in my replies to Matt on this thread.

Whatever I have written on this Forum is Factual - NOT an opinion - it is only seen to be an `opinion` by people who disagree with what I wrote because of either lack of knowledge [?] or perhaps people misunderstood something that I wrote - I have never tried to knowingly advise against / disagree with any `Codes` / Regulations that exist in the U.S.


Perhaps You have never encountered a vastly experienced Building Services Engineer / Gas Engineer / Heating Engineer / Plumber / Heating, Plumbing & Gas Contractor [who has spent most of his working life `on the tools`] like Me before - ?

If You do ever work for / take instruction from someone who is qualified to such an extent and also has decades of `on the tools` experience I wonder if You will think that their explanations / comments / details about `Technical matters` to You are `Patronising` ?


No doubt You would state that it is `the way that I write` that causes people to dislike my `tone`.


In my everyday life / working life I am known as an extremely polite / `likeable`person and I have never gotten the impression from any of my workforce or any other person that I `speak down to` / patronise them.

But I have often thought that on this Forum I am not welcomed - I am resented - `We are not having a British Engineer trying to tell Us how to do anything` is the impression that I get from some of the replies to my messages.


Regards,


Chris

 

[CHRISM]

Maybe in the future the UK should make it clear in their training that a chimney is exempt from being classified as a wall so errors like this do not happen? Whoever the engineers that make these regulations are not doing there job properly if there is confusion going on.

"Hello again Chris",


The Chimney / Brickwork is NOT exempt from being classed as a `Wall`.

In this case the Boiler Flue is not close enough to the `main body` of the Brickwork for it to be classed as `too close to a wall`.


IF the Flue terminal WAS located close to the `main body` of the Brickwork / Chimney Stack it WOULD be `too close to a wall`.


My description of the Flue Terminal being `out in clear air` is stating the obvious - it is far away enough from the Chimney Stack to not be adversely affected by any Winds circulating around the Stack.

If the Manufacturer of the Boiler or Gas Safe [UK mandatory registration body for Gas Engineers and Gas Installers] were just asked about this situation during a telephone call they would probably interpret the Regulation / clearance distance as Matt has because they could not see the Flue terminal and would definitely `err on the side of safety` and quote the 300mm clearance to a wall - BUT from the Photo they would agree with Me.


This is why `Engineering judgement` must be applied to situations such as this - the Manufacturers Instructions and Gas Safety Regulations cannot describe EVERY scenario / location of a Flue terminal:

If the Flue Terminal was for example by the side of the main body of brickwork [and closer than the 300mm clearance from a wall] it would indeed be `too close to a wall`.

In this case the Flue Terminal is NOT by the side of the main body of brickwork forming the Chimney stack - and it is far away enough to not be adversely affected by the stack regarding possible Wind turbulence or products of combustion from the Chimney outlet.


Regards,

Chris

 

[Chris]

In the original post it states that it is closer than 300mm and that is why he tagged it. I am confused now.

 

[CHRISM]

In the original post it states that it is closer than 300mm and that is why he tagged it. I am confused now.

"Hello again Chris",

Some people would think that You were being awkward with that comment - especially as I know that You are an Engineer and work on some large projects where I am sure that your `Engineering judgement` is often what decides how to proceed.

The Boiler Flue Terminal is NOT within 300mm of the `MAIN BODY OF THE BRICKWORK` - being within 300mm of a CORNER of the brickwork does NOT class the Flue Terminal as `being too close to a WALL`.

I really cannot be clearer than that description.

Regards,

Chris

 

[Mr_David]

"
If You do ever work for / take instruction from someone who is qualified to such an extent I wonder if You will think that their explanations / comments / details about `Technical matters` to You are `Patronising` ?


No doubt You would state that it is `the way that I write` that causes people to dislike my `tone`.


In my everyday life / working life I am known as an extremely polite / `likeable`person and I have never gotten the impression from any of my workforce that I `speak down to` / patronise them.

But I have often thought that on this Forum I am not welcomed - I am resented. - `We are not having a British Engineer trying to tell Us how to do anything` is the veiled impression that I have felt.


Regards,


Chris

I agree with ChrisM on many and most points he has made. Yeah his comments can be a bit long. But I never read anything that he suggested he was calling anyone stupid, just inexperienced as the OP had stated he was in the beginning.

I'm not going to go tit for tat and try to make comments on what he said and she said or they said. I just don't have the writing skills to put it all down to make sense out of it all.

Phish, Yeah maybe he does seem a little condescending at times. That customer had to spend money on something that common sense would have said otherwise.
How many times have you had a building inspector call you out on something because of they way he interpreted the code, do to his lack of experience?


maybe none. I had to disconnect a newly installed 100 gallon water heater once. The manufactures stated 4" of clearance from back to combustible wall ( painted drywall ). Here we have to install the WH with seismic straps . We add wood blocking behind the heater about midway up on the wall. Because the wood blocking was touching the sheet metal jacket of the heater, zero clearance to back of heater was violated. The 4" clearance was intended for safety because of the burner at the bottom of the heater. There is no safety hazard with the wood block touching the back of the heater 3 ft off the ground.
I had to wrap the block with a pc of sheet metal.

What ever happened to common sense.

I see a lot of bad advice given by some here. More often it is just misinterpreted information. I think CHRISM did try to give some constructive advice as well. I recall he listed a reference the OP can obtain to span his knowledge a bit.

MATT, don't quit. move forward with what is learned here NOT backwards.

 

[Mr_David]

UK seems to have more stringent code requirements and stricter enforcements of those codes. That can be a good thing. I see a lot of bad and unsafe installation of things that just make me kringe sometimes.

You report them but often nothing gets corrected.

Just started to rain here. We are in a severe drought even with a little rain.
It stopped already before I could finish the sentence.

what do see wrong with this automatic pool filler?

 

[phishfood]

It does not appear to me to have an approved backflow prevention device installed to separate the potable water from from the pool.

 

[havasu]

I was gunna say a dirty light switch plate???