How Much of This Do I Have to Replace?

[sburtchin]

The drain pipe for my kitchen sink is leaking. My house was built in 1965. Everything is copper and brass. I am pretty sure the labeling on the pipe says it is type "DWV". Our water is VERY high in calcium, if that matters. I've lived here 30 years and have never been able to get the softener to work right. The pipe connecting the kitchen sink to the main sewer is in attrocious condition, but I can't find a leak anywhere else.

My main question then is: What is the expected lifetime of this stuff? I really can't afford to replace any more than that leaky section if I don't have to, but I don't want to be replacing little bits here and there for the next 10 years. Could that have been a bad section of pipe from the start?

The leak started the same time the outdoor fawcett on the back side of that wall started dripping. It has no shutoff. Then I thought it was a leaking toilet because all the water coincided closely with flushing the toilet. The hung ceiling hid what was really going on.

I'll explain some pictures. (1) is where the kitchen sink enters the basement. The bottom of the pipe is rotted there, and it continues like that for about 3 feet. The remaining pictures follow the pipe around. (2) is above the breaker box. Not quite as bad there. (3), (4) and (5) continuing to the right. That's the supply to the electric stove through the same holes as the pipe - how stupid is that! (6) is where it enters the basement bathroom. That framework is for the hung ceiling - hiding what was going on. (7) shows it entering the drain for the toilets. Shouldn't that cleanout be pointed up so the toilet water doesn't flow back into the sink pipe? (8) shows the first toilet and I think the vent through the roof. (9) and (10) show the second toilet. That strap on the right is loose. There's some spongy white and green mineral buildup and appearance of some seepage at a joint, but not to the point of dripping. (11) (see next post) shows the drains for the halfbath sink and bathtub. (12) and (13) are closeups. I believe all the water damage you see under the bathrooms are from sweating and occasional toilet overflows.

If it all has to be replaced, what is best, plastic or copper? Can all the brass fittings be reused? Please help! Thanks!

 

[sburtchin]

More attachments . . .

 

[frodo]

replace it with pvc sch 40,

what you can do to offset the cost of material, when you replace it, scrap the copper out. it is going for high dollah at the scrap yard

is that your basement?

reason i ask, if head room was not a problem, it would be a simple fix.


when you scrap out the copper, cut the fittings off. anything with solider on it

goes in 1 pile

pile #2 is copper with out fittings/solider

copper is bought for 2 prices #1 copper=no fittings/solider
#2 copper solider

the difference is substantial,,,,,do not let them give you #2 price for #1 they will try

 

[sburtchin]

is that your basement?

reason i ask, if head room was not a problem, it would be a simple fix.

Yes, but it is in a finished bathroom that opens to a finished recreation room in the basement. 2x10 floor joists with a hanging metal framework that holds 2'x4' fiberboard ceiling tiles, so there is about 9 1/2" headroom for practical purposes. On the other hand, what is the 'realestate value' of that basement bathroom? It's full of spiders all the time. We don't use it. My wife is afraid to even walk in. We have to constantly add water to the toilet to keep out sewer gas. If the sewers flood from heavy rains, we can't use any sinks or that toilet overflows. I forgot to put water in the sink down there. Do spiders crawl up out of the sewer? I have hundreds this year. They can't be breeding. I rarely have an insect in the house, so they only have eachother to eat. Calcium deposits have sealed off the fawcetts and the toilet tank from non-use.

By "simple fix", did you mean to use the whole space from floor to ceiling to space out all the fittings? The vertical part is inside a finished wall.

copper is bought for 2 prices #1 copper=no fittings/solider
#2 copper solider

Is this because the solder is a contaminant? All those fittings are brass. I thought brass was more valuable than copper? Is the brass reusable, or is that scrap too? Just wondering if I can replace only the copper, or if all the fittings are corroded too? Would all PVC still be cheaper?

I thought there was supposed to be some drop like 1/8" or 1/4" per foot if not vertical. All those drain pipes look perfectly level. Is this normal that everything would need replaced after 50 years? Could it just be that one pipe? Toilet bowl cleaner could have gotten into there and laid for hours before the next time the kitchen sink was used.

 

[frodo]

I thought there was supposed to be some drop like 1/8" or 1/4" per foot if not vertical. All those drain pipes look perfectly level. Is this normal that everything would need replaced after 50 years? Could it just be that one pipe? Toilet bowl cleaner could have gotten into there and laid for hours before the next time the kitchen sink was used.

NEVER< NEVER< EVER< NEVER EVER EVER EVER>...use that BS drano crap!!!!!!!!

its acid, what dos acid do? it eats stuff up!!!!

you need your sewer system jetted out by a pro. its basicly a pressure washer for inside your pipes

tf money is tight, replace whats leaking.

 

[Caduceus]

Toilet bowl cleaner when used in just the bowl shouldn't do much to the pipes. Copper DWV systems are extremely reliable and last for a very long time if installed properly. Toilet bowl cleaners that are placed in the tank have a corrosive effect on the gaskets and seals between the tank and bowl as well as the mechanical parts of the tank's flushing system.
Any leaks from faucets, valves or compression connections above what's shown in the pics, past and present, could cause corrosion the the pipes like you show in the pictures. Moisture and atmosphere do that kind of thing to the outside of pipes. There is also talk about how close proximity of electrical wiring to copper water piping (supply and drainage) can influence premature corrosion.
As frodo mentioned, cost would direct you towards replacing only what you need to, a full repipe could cost a lot more.
If you are concerned about fall/flow of the existing pipes, you could get a really cheap hand level and place it on the bottom or top of the pipes to see if the bubble indicates slope, eyeballing it can be a little deceiving.
If you call for a repair, ask if free estimates are available and get several to compare. Take some time in your decision to avoid any post purchase regrets.

 

[Mr_David]

Most of the DWV copper drains I see that are rotten like that often have a flat or a slightly negative fall to them. The acidic organic sludge from the kitchen contribute to the decay of the copper tube. Squeeze the bottom of the horizontal run of pipe. If it feels solid leave it. Replace it with plastic, PVC or ABS. What ever is most common in your area.

 

[sburtchin]

NEVER< NEVER< EVER< NEVER EVER EVER EVER>...use that BS drano crap!!!!!!!!

its acid, what dos acid do? it eats stuff up!!!!

Absolutely great advice. Any non-plumbers reading this -> pay close attention to what frodo says here.

I have heard this many times before. My dad was a plumber. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The pipe for the sink drain is at the same level as the manifold for the toilets. When that frst toilet is flushed, some of the water backflows into the kitchen sink drain pipe. I know this because water leaks out every time that toilet is flushed. When TB cleaner is flushed down that first toilet, that stuff could lay in there for hours before the next time the kitchen sink is used to flush it out - something I never thougt to worry about because I expected that it would empty downward into the larger pipe. The TB cleaner is about the most corrosive stuff I have outside my car battery. I was wondering if this could explain why that one pipe is corroded so much while none of the other pipes show any outward signs of corrosion. That whole section is bad - I was able to push a hole through with a wooden stick in the bathroom.

No Drano or equivalent has ever been used in the kitchen sink at least since I have lived here. If it's only the one pipe, I will replace with copper. I expect the vertical part will be just fine. If everything has to go I'll use plastic. This is a DIY project either way.

 

[sburtchin]

Copper DWV systems are extremely reliable and last for a very long time if installed properly.

Mine is 50 years old. Can I expect another 30?

There is also talk about how close proximity of electrical wiring to copper water piping (supply and drainage) can influence premature corrosion.

That wire was touching the bottom right where the corrosion was worst. Sweating in Summer + crack in insulation = leakage current with copper wire and copper pipe, until the leak started, then throw calcium into the mix. Wire looks too small to be aluminum, but I could be wrong. I can imagine the electromagnetic field from that wire might make the inside of the pipe more reactive. I'll be moving that wire.

If you are concerned about fall/flow of the existing pipes, you could get a really cheap hand level and place it on the bottom or top of the pipes to see if the bubble indicates slope, eyeballing it can be a little deceiving.

Slopes a little one way then the other, about what you'd expect from the random play between the pipes and fittings before soldering. Can't find any indication any slope was intended. It's a little negative where that leak is.

 

[sburtchin]

Most of the DWV copper drains I see that are rotten like that often have a flat or a slightly negative fall to them. The acidic organic sludge from the kitchen contribute to the decay of the copper tube. Squeeze the bottom of the horizontal run of pipe. If it feels solid leave it. Replace it with plastic, PVC or ABS. What ever is most common in your area.

It's flat or negative, and the organic sludge is pretty thick where that pipe is rotted. That organic soup would have to flow through the manifold under the toilets too. Would the toilets keep it from building-up there? It's 50 years old now. Can I expect 30 more years form the rest? If I only have to replace the 1-1/2" pipe from the kitchen, that brass cleanout fitting (and the vertical pipe above it) should still be OK, I think. Does it just come down to cost - plastic vs. copper?

 

[sburtchin]

That wire was aluminum 8-8-8 service cable on a 50 amp breaker. Is that even legal? NEC chart says it's good for 40 amps. Got the wire moved today.

If I replace the drain pipe with plastic, most of the holes through the floor joists will have to be made bigger. Any suggestions on how to do that?

The big question still remains, should I replace just the pipe from the sink to the manifold, or should I replace everything? Can I can get another 30 years from the rest?

 

[frodo]

sorry man, thought i answered it.


if you can afford to have a plumber replace it, do so.

if you cant, just water jet and patch as you go.


it boils down to your pocket book, the plumbing looks to be level.

call 3 plumbers, have them look at it, and explain what it will entail to replace

 

[sburtchin]

This is a DIY project. My costs will be cost of materials and amount of my time needed to fix it.

There's a saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But I don't want to be putting on bandaids every two years.

That stuff is packed in really tight, and I have to tear open at least one finished wall to replace it all. Most of the holes (through wood) have to be enlarged for plastic. I want to be really sure it needs replaced before ripping everything up.

If I go all plastic the material cost should be reasonable. If all the brass fittings are reusable, there would only be the cost of the copper pipe. I don't know how feasible it is to cleanup/reuse that brass.

Common sense tells me that vertical section of 3" copper inside the wall should last hundreds of years, but I don't know.

 

[phishfood]

I would replace everything horizontal copper that I could. If the original installers could not install a single waste arm with proper fall, the rest of the install is suspect as well. Even with plastic, you need to install with proper fall on the pipe.

An experienced hand with a holesaw or a self feed bit can redrill those holes with the proper fall on them.