FVIR Water Heater Pilot wont stay lit after cleaning filter

[arcsum68]

Model Select State Series 200/201 High Efficiency GS6 50 YOCT 2007 (This was in the house when we bought it 4 years ago, so I have no documentation)

Been having an issue where the pilot would go out after heating the tank, pretty much just like this guy.

http://www.plumbingforums.com/forum/f12/pilot-light-will-not-stay-lit-2883/

I have not opened the unit, but I did get in under the thing with compressed air and a feather duster and cleaned that filter. It worked for a day after that.

This morning it was out again, so I built a vacuum attachment consisting of a small piece of copper tubing and a shortened 90 so I could really get in there and vacuum the filter.

Problem now is the pilot wont stay lit. Tested the thermocouple and I am getting 25mw, so that should be fine.

Suggestions? Should I take it apart and clean out the burn chamber or is it possibly the valve?

 

[arcsum68]

Subscribing, sry

 

[arcsum68]

Could it be the pilot assembly, or would the valve be a better guess?

 

[johnjh2o]

My guess it you didn't get the filter completely clean. It's not a easy task. Take a look at the link I posted on the post you referred to.

John

 

[arcsum68]

Filter is clean, its not getting any cleaner, guaranteed. I cleaned it from the inside and the outside, combustion chamber is completely clean too.

When I started this whole thing thing the pilot would always light, even before I cleaned anything, the filter being dirty should not keep the pilot from staying lit since it uses minimal air. I could be wrong, but again, lighting the pilot only became a problem today.

I called State, they are having me pickup a valve from a local distributor under warranty, but they are now closed until Monday

 

[johnjh2o]

I hope that solves your problem. But I bet State didn't tell you that it was a problem that they were having with there heaters.

John

 

[LiQuId]

subscribing to hear the end result. I would have guessed debris in the pilot tubing as a posability, but you can light it ? try testing the Valve coil to see if its making contact ( becoming energized ) ... though warranty sounds like they maybe know something we dont

 

[arcsum68]

I've read this series of water heaters by State and AO were terribly designed. I clean out everything, blew out the pilot tubing, cleaned out all the debris. Even lifted up the baffle on the bottom so I could fully access the top of the disc to clean it from both sides. Blew through the pilot tube and I could see the flow on the flame of a lighter. Not sure how much air I should be able to push through the pilot tube, but it's definitely not blocked. Besides, it actually stays lit as long as I hold down the knob, so gas is going through there, something is telling it to not stay on. Nothing was particularly dirty to begin with (outside), there was no layer of lint or anything, just light dust. I am almost beginning to wonder if the problem was with the valve the entire time. After the first cleaning it took me 5 or 6 tries to get the pilot to stay lit, I turned the temp up and down a few times and it finally lit and stayed lit. That cleaning got me through a day.

 

[arcsum68]

I will say, they are awesome about the warranty. I have no documentation, no receipts nothing. Going to a supply house on Monday to exchange it for free. Hard to beat that on a 5 year old water heater.

 

[LiQuId]

john had mentioned something about the a.o smith water heaters on a previous forum but I hadnt heard about the problems with the state water heaters also having this problem. good to know, sweet that they are good on the warranty.

 

[arcsum68]

john had mentioned something about the a.o smith water heaters on a previous forum but I hadnt heard about the problems with the state water heaters also having this problem. good to know, sweet that they are good on the warranty.

I was under the impression from my research that they were made almost identically, but I have done a lot of reading, so I cannot be sure.

 

[arcsum68]

So far so good, it lit on the first try and its heating up the tank.

I will report back later, let everyone know if it stays lit. Cant wait for a real shower.

 

[arcsum68]

So I obviously had a combination of problems, because I am still having issues. State is sending me a pilot assembly, on the 13th when they get back in stock. Pretty bad that I have to wait 2 weeks for it to even get shipped. After replacing the valve, and having it work for 12 hours I went to put the outer cover back on, I touched the thermocouple wire and it immediately turned off the pilot, then would not light, even hours later.

Anyway, the thermocouple on this water heater has a small disc that from what I read is a thermal cutoff device. I never looked at what was printed on mine, but I believe they are around 200 degrees. Is this the temperature of the combustion chamber?
All things still lead back to the chamber getting too hot because the filter is dirty, but it's not. I have cleaned it several times inside and out using the attachment I made out of copper fittings per numerous instructions. Also the flame is a nice blue color which indicates it's getting enough air, from what I found in an excellent document made by Reliance the flame will be yellow if it's starving for air. On that note, the chamber is getting too hot if it should be around 200 degrees, my multimeter came with a temp lead and the combustion chamber is 200 up to 250. I was only able to test this because I replaced the thermocouple with a universal one for the purpose of testing. So now I know that either the thermal cutoff device is bad on my original unit or there is still something causing the combustion chamber to get too hot.

I did head up to the roof to check out the vent, which looks to be very clear and free of any debris. I cannot see past the bend, but I doubt there would be any issues there since everything else was clean and showed no signs of problems.

 

[LiQuId]

temp of the combustion chamber could be told with a infra red meter, but the approximate maximum flame temperature for natural gas is 3600 'F

thermocouple ( universal ) should work in place of whatever was there, but a snap disc will have a manual reset on it.

A yellow flame is a carbonizing flame, like a fire in a firepit causes soot and buildup due to incomplete combustion and not enough primary air

a blue flame would be considered a neutral flame as it is in a balance with its air consumption

a Whistleing flame is an oxidizing flame, also a lifiting flame from the burner ... too much primary air air. ( unless you need this type of flame, like cutting or such )

I think you need to get a new hwt, it would replace the one you have and solve all your issues... that being said, get the state one you have working and you have a dedicated hot tub filler HWT...

if its a snap disc tripping out is Should be easy to solve, you should get no continuity through the control circuit as it will ahve tripped into the open position .

 

[arcsum68]

Replaced the pilot assembly last night, to my surprise it was delivered yesterday. Been up and running for some 14 hours when I left the house this morning through multiple cycles and 2 showers this morning. See how things go.

See my responses in blue below

temp of the combustion chamber could be told with a infra red meter, but the approximate maximum flame temperature for natural gas is 3600 'F I believe the thermal cuttoff device measures the temp of the air right where it's located, which is right above the filter below the burner and is labeled with 200. When I put the temp lead right in that location temps were very close to 200. I have not tested since replacing everything because It is now completely sealed like it should be.


thermocouple ( universal ) should work in place of whatever was there, but a snap disc will have a manual reset on it. I believe the use of a normal thermocouple would void warranty and also possibly cause issues with an insurance claim should my house burst into flames due to an overheating issue. Also it is not a snap disc, it has no reset button.

A yellow flame is a carbonizing flame, like a fire in a firepit causes soot and buildup due to incomplete combustion and not enough primary air

a blue flame would be considered a neutral flame as it is in a balance with its air consumption Mine is blue, which tells me I have good air flow

a Whistleing flame is an oxidizing flame, also a lifiting flame from the burner ... too much primary air air. ( unless you need this type of flame, like cutting or such ) I have no whistling

I think you need to get a new hwt, it would replace the one you have and solve all your issues... that being said, get the state one you have working and you have a dedicated hot tub filler HWT... Bad answer, BOOOOO

if its a snap disc tripping out is Should be easy to solve, you should get no continuity through the control circuit as it will ahve tripped into the open position Not sure what to say here, tests show the thermocouple was working per my multimeter but the thing would not stay lit until I replaced the valve and then again a few days later my pilot would not stay lit even though I was pulling 25mv. Perhaps it was in intermittent issue. I will need to see how the new pilot assembly works out for me .

 

[arcsum68]

Here are some pics, just in case this helps anyone.

Here are the tools I made to clean the filter, PVC for the inside and copper for underneath. I had everything laying around, so I made the PVC for inside thinking it would have more airflow to suck the dirt out.

This is exactly like my pilot assembly, with the TCO device circled, no manual reset.

And my clean combustion chamber/filter. The bottom is equally clean, just too hard to get a pic of it.

 

[arcsum68]

27 hours and holding with the new pilot assembly.

 

[arcsum68]

I think I am good now, been 4 days now and I have an no issues.

 

[LiQuId]

glad to hear.

 

[Renhoek]

I think I am good now, been 4 days now and I have an no issues.

Hi,

Just wondering if it your heater is still working, over a year later?

I have the same State HWH heater, and the same problem. I replaced the original 200*C thermocouple/TCO assembly with the SKU part that AO Smith (they took over for State) told me to buy, which I bought here locally in CA.

But the box it came in said it was a "High Altitude" version, and the orange rating sticker said it was "180*C". And yet, I made a follow-up call to the AOS tech support people, and they said it would work.

But I'm still having the same problem -- burner & pilot shut down after 15 minutes -- so I think the tech person at AOS gave me the wrong SKU and won't admit it!?

Where can I find the correct SKU/part number to replace the original 200*C TC/TCO?

RH in CA