1 of my 3 old Kohler K-3397 Low Profile toilets is misbehaving & I really need help!

[Jeff Davis]

It suddenly wants to never completely stop 'filling', even after I’ve tried everything that I can think of. A new valve stack top, float, valve & gasket haven't changed anything. I've tried every imaginable adjustment & nothing helps.
I've got new spares of everything and I’ve tried them all.
There wasn't anything wrong with the old parts and they hadn't been installed for more than 2 years, so now I should probably just reinstall everything and keep the new parts new.
I bought a few complete sets of Kohler 1B1X Kit WP-TR-10 ball cock valve stacks with floats & arms a few years ago so I'd have spares. I’ve got a dozen ball cock valve repair kits too.
Obviously, the flapper isn't the cause, but I even put a fresh one on.
The oozing fill just continues so slowly that it never even overfills the thing that the flap is attached to. It just keeps slowing oozing water, apparently through the clear tube that leads down into the toilet's bowl, as I can see a tiny stream of water flowing into the bowl at the very front.
It always takes a little tug up on the float arm to complete the shut off, so I've been forced to just leave the tank's lid off. I know it's supposed to just pop up and close the valve when the float gets near the top.
They've all always done that on their own, as they should.
So, what the heck is wrong? I need help. I'm going crazy.

 

[GReynolds929]

I think you may be siphoning water through the refill tube.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I think you may be siphoning water through the refill tube.

Thanks, but I'm don't know what that means. Can you explain or at least tell me what I should do?

 

[GReynolds929]

If the refill hose is lower than the water level in the tank it can cause water to siphon through the fill valve out the hose and into the bowl. This may be what's happening here. Especially if the hose is set deep into the hole.

 

[Jeff Davis]

If the refill hose is lower than the water level in the tank it can cause water to siphon through the fill valve out the hose and into the bowl. This may be what's happening here. Especially if the hose is set deep into the hole.

Thanks. I think I understand a bit. The refill hose must be that clear hose that's about 6" long & maybe ½" I'd that goes from the float valve towards the front of the tank? If that's it, its up near the very top of the water in the tank when full, but it is underwater a little.
So here's where I'm confused. Are you saying that the refill hose, once it's submerged as the tank fills, it can cause the water to keep flowing past the valve and that somehow creates a vacuum negative pressure that keeps the valve open? If that's what you're saying, I can imagine that being what's maybe causing the valve to never be able to close completely?
I understand physics pretty well luckily but I can't understand why that hose being underwater would possibly cause it to create suction in it.
The water I see continuing to flow down the front of the bowl is a tiny dribble. That could be strong enough to overcome the pressure of the float and keep it from completely closing the valve until I tug it up a little?
Am I getting this wrong?

 

[havasu]

If you lift the float ball upwards until it shuts off, and still watch the water slowly draining into the bowl, then your water from the tank is siphoning out, into your bowl.

I also really dislike those float ball fill valves as they are always problematic. Get rid of it and replace it with a Fluidmaster # 400A. It will set you back about $14, but well worth it.

 

[Jeff Davis]

If you lift the float ball upwards until it shuts off, and still watch the water slowly draining into the bowl, then your water from the tank is siphoning out, into your bowl.

I also really dislike those float ball fill valves as they are always problematic. Get rid of it and replace it with a Fluidmaster # 400A. It will set you back about $14, but well worth it.

WOW cool!
$14 bucks for a Fluidmaster #400A fix is nothin', even for all 3 toilets. But I think I'd just start by trying 1 on this toilet since the other 2 toilets are working like new and I've got all those new spare parts for them to use up.
I'd still like a little lesson on what you mean by "water from the tank is siphoning out into your bowl."
I guess you mean that for some reason the water flowing through the tube is sucking hard enough that it sucks the valve's rubber grommet open slightly even though the float is trying to push it down and closed?
ADDED WITH EDIT: These are called Universal but will it still work in these Kohler K-3397 Low Profile toilets? Are all the valves the same height so it doesn't need to be special, or is this part shorter just for Low Profile toilet tanks?

 

[breplum]

I don't think the 400A will refill those old p.o.s. toilets. They use higher flow refill. all those low profile models, Rialto, San Raphael are notorious for being high-problem on the parts side.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I don't think the 400A will refill those old p.o.s. toilets. They use higher flow refill. all those low profile models, Rialto, San Raphael are notorious for being high-problem on the parts side.

Hi. I'm not sure what you're saying. The 400A won't fit in or work in my tank or what? If so, bummer. You’d had me excited.
I'm just a homeowner that likes to fix his own stuff to save money and so that I know enough so that I'm not taken advantage of by unscrupulous repairmen if I choose to have something done.
I feel so sorry for most people. Even Jiffy Lube tries to sell you things you don't need, like $7.95 to pour a few ounces of water into your radiator overflow container that anyone can easily do with a cup of water and no tools.

 

[breplum]

The "height" max on the 400A says 9". whatever that means... but the tiny refill tube on the Fluidmaster is likely not appropriate

 

[amj105]

Hi Jeff, try whats on this video. It will let you kow if your siphoning and save you water at the same time (made this video about 10 yr. ago)

 

[Jeff Davis]

Thought I'd throw in some new info. I just had a plumber come out yesterday since I suddenly saw water messing up the paint on the spot in the ceiling on the 1st floor right that's directly under this toilet this question is about. It's on the 2nd story. I ran upstairs and I couldn't see anything wrong. Everything was dry.
I immediately shut off the house's water and I drained everything I could by turning ON both Hot and Cold water everywhere upstairs and downstairs along with the hose outlets outside.
I also unplugged the water heater recirculation pump.
That obviously stopped the water. Luckily, I'd caught it so soon that the water hadn't busted thru the paint or dripped anywhere.
It's warm enough here in southern California and that plumbing is all on an outer wall, so I'll hope & assume it will dry up without molding.
Overnight the ceiling dried up almost completely and the paint bubbles on the ceiling retracted almost flush to where I can barely see them even though I know where they were.
The plumber, after looking at the toilet suggests a leaking wax ring AND he also sees a failing gasket under the flapper drainage stack.
He says that could be what's making the float never able to stop it from filling. I guess I sort of understand & buy that.
He's getting parts and will be back shortly.

 

[havasu]

Seems you got real lucky. You may find that spot will discolor over time, so if so, prime it with Kilz before repainting.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I'd forgotten to mention that he also found the flapper to be really old and dilapidated. I have a bunch of new Corky flappers, so he put it in. That helped a bunch.
He told me to only adjust the fill valve's 2 screws in top of it and to never mess with the white plastic knob on the side that's a few inches from the top. He says those are factory set and should never be messed with. I don't understand that and I told him that I had screwed it in when I'd been messing around trying to get the float valve to stop the flow.
He said that was bad and that there's no way to now know where to reset it to.
That doesn't make sense to me. Is that really accurate?

 

[Jeff Davis]

Seems you got real lucky. You may find that spot will discolor over time, so if so, prime it with Kilz before repainting.

Thanks. I'll keep that Kilz primer in mind. I'll keep an eye on the ceiling spot to see if it discolors. Maybe it won't? Hope so.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I apologize for how long this new Reply is, but I'd still like some help & my giving all info I know might help, since it might turn out to be relevant.
This 1 of my 3 Kohler K-3397 Low Profile continues to seep a little from under the rim forever after the float has shut off the valve, despite everything I've tried.
By forever, I mean for days, weeks and forever. Very important to know is that this is a toilet that we rarely use.
The seepage is obviously coming from the water that's in the tank. I know that since I use the blue Scrubbing Bubbles Vanish Drop-In tablets in the tank and the water draining down from under the rim is blue and it ends up leaving crusted on lime streaks that can only be slightly removed with LimeAway, LimeOUT or CLR, but really need to be scrubbed off with a Pumie Scouring Stick pumice block.
I read somewhere a while ago, or maybe I was told here in one of my Questions, that a drip like this could be or probably is caused by siphoning.
I'm just a homeowner, so I have no idea what 'siphoning' is, nor do I care to learn. I just want to stop it and I'm really tired of plumbers coming out and telling me that I should just replace all 3 toilets since they're 35 years old. I'm like, no, I just want them to work like they always have and I've got LOTS of spare parts if we need any that you can't get or don't have at your shop.
What's causing this siphoning or more importantly, how do I stop it i.e. what parts need replacing or adjusting? I have lots of new spare parts that are in these photos: 4 entire KOHLER 8499 float valve kits, 12 #1B1X-KIT repair kits, 5 Korky flaps & a flap stack & gasket.
The last 2 images are really the most important since they show the toilet.

 

[TomFOhio]

Jeff, you need the genuine kohler flapper. The number on the flapper that you need is GP83064. Put this on and take that
korky one off. You can get this on amazon. Hope this helps you.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Jeff, you need the genuine kohler flapper. The number on the flapper that you need is GP83064. Put this on and take that
korky one off. You can get this on amazon. Hope this helps you.

Thanks but does the flap have anything to do with the rim? From what I see of how it's attached and where, including the level it's at, it seems like it only lets water from the tank rush down into the lower part of the bowl. I didn't know there's a connection. Is there?