Toilet shut off valve doesn't seem to work right

[mcf57]

So, I recently replaced a toilet in a basement bathroom. I have done this many times so this has never been an issue. As before, I first turned off the water to the toilet from the valve near the wall. Then disconnected the water supply line from toilet. Removed the old toilet and replaced with new one. I didn't put the wax ring/seal on just yet as I wanted to make sure everything fit and lined up properly. hooked everything up and turned the water back on. Tested, check for leaks and all was good.

On to putting the wax seal on. I turn the water off from the wall. Flushed to get most water out of tank and used some towels to get the rest. When I started to unscrew the water supply line (from the toilet tank), water started leaking and flowing out of the line coming from the wall. I checked and turned the water off as tightly as I could. Its still flowing though when I try to remove the water supply line. I tightened it back up to the toilet and all is good and no leaking.

Since it still needs the wax ring, I am not using it just yet. I can turn the water off from the street to fully get this done, but did something wear out in the wall valve? does something need to be replaced in the wall shutoff valve (circled in picture below). Maybe some sort of ball, bearing or something else? Not sure.

 

[MicEd69]

Yes, that valve should be replaced. I would suggest you replace it with a quarter turn valve. I can't tell for sure from the picture, but it seems like that valve is screwed onto your water pipe. What kind of water piping do you have? Galvanized? Copper? Plastic? Can you confirm that that valve is screwed onto your water pipe?

Either the valve internals have come apart or some rust/scale has become stuck inside the valve. If it is a screwed valve, replacing it will be relatively easy. If it is soldered or crimped on, replacement is more of an endeavor for a DIYer.

 

[GReynolds929]

You don't need water hooked up to the toilet to check alignment and you should never flush without a seal in place. That's a good way to create water damage.

The shut off at the wall should be replaced. You will need to shut water off to the whole house before removing the shut off.

 

[mcf57]

I thought it was soldered on, but I think the valve is screwed on, right (pictured)? If screwed on, I guess replacing would be easy. I think it’s a 1/2 female connection, right?

I haven’t gotten to it yet, but if for some reason it doesn’t come off, can I simply install another valve on top of it?

 

[MicEd69]

Yes, it is indeed screwed on. You should be able to use two open end wrenches to unscrew it. One on the pipe nut and one on the valve's hex body.

You really don't want to put a 3/8" compression valve on top of the existing bad valve.

 

[mcf57]

Sounds good. Will try to remove it and get one this weekend. I don’t “use” it a lot and didn’t think they could really go bad, but I guess so. Does age simply make them go bad? Or something else?

I am now thinking I should check my other two toilet’s valves

 

[Twowaxhack]

Turn the water off at the main and relieve the pressure by opening a faucet.

Next, open the toilet stop valve and use a wrench to remove the nut marked in blue and then turn the valve handle counterclockwise until the stem comes out of the valve body.


Once the valve stem is removed from the valve body you should have a rubber washer that snaps onto the end of the stem assembly. If it’s not there then it’s still in the valve body. Use a light and a dental pick tool to retrieve the old washer.

Then it’s a matter of installing a new washer or my preferred method of repair is to install a complete new stem/handle assembly that I’ve removed from a new valve I buy at the store.

Here’s a link to the correct valve to buy and remove the stem assembly.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCr...VpFN_AB2d6QuDEAQYBSABEgL68fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[MicEd69]

Sounds good. Will try to remove it and get one this weekend. I don’t “use” it a lot and didn’t think they could really go bad, but I guess so. Does age simply make them go bad? Or something else?

I am now thinking I should check my other two toilet’s valves

The water quality degrades the rubber and turning that style valve on and off likely caused the rubber to come apart. Or as I said, if you have galvanized pipes, rust could have come off the pipe, or if you have copper or one of the plastic materials, mineral buildup could be a contributing factor.

As you have to turn the water off to the house anyway, now would be a good time to change them all if you want. I believe those are 5/8" OD compression inlets, so you will have to use the existing ferrule and nut, so you may want to buy the same brand valve and hopefully it will fit.

 

[cgilley]

Yes, that valve should be replaced. I would suggest you replace it with a quarter turn valve. I can't tell for sure from the picture, but it seems like that valve is screwed onto your water pipe. What kind of water piping do you have? Galvanized? Copper? Plastic? Can you confirm that that valve is screwed onto your water pipe?

Either the valve internals have come apart or some rust/scale has become stuck inside the valve. If it is a screwed valve, replacing it will be relatively easy. If it is soldered or crimped on, replacement is more of an endeavor for a DIYer.

I concur on the 1/4 turn. Any valve that requires you to turn and turn and turn to seat it is simply obsolete. The ball valves are superior.

 

[mcf57]

Thanks for the advice. I will try to get a 1/4 turn valve.

I am watching some YouTube videos on how to replace the entire valve. While no soldering is needed, it still makes me nervous removing the old valve. Looks like a compression removal tool is probably best to get the valve off. Then cleaning the (copper) pipe and install the new valve.

Is it then probably not too hard to get a complete seal when I stalling the new valve? Or are there mistakes that can be made when trying to put the new one on and leaks will occur?

Also, the link to the replacement valve (Home Depot) looks like the same turn type valve I have now. I do like the idea of a 1/4 turn valve instead. This one would work as well, correct?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BrassCr...let-1-4-Turn-Angle-Valve-G2CR19X-C1/202047059

 

[MicEd69]

As I said, you should be able to reuse the existing nut and ferrule. The problem you have is with the valve internals, not the ferrule or nut. If you remove the ferrule, there could be problems in getting the new ferrule to seat on the pipe resulting in leakage at that point.

Just purchase the 1/4 turn valve you posted, unscrew the valve body from the ferrule nut, and screw the new valve body onto the existing nut reusing the existing ferrule. Don't use any Teflon tape. The sealing surface of a ferrule joint is on the ferrule and the tapered surface inside the valve body. Teflon tape can impede a good seal and actually lead to leakage.

 

[mcf57]

As I said, you should be able to reuse the existing nut and ferrule. The problem you have is with the valve internals, not the ferrule or nut. If you remove the ferrule, there could be problems in getting the new ferrule to seat on the pipe resulting in leakage at that point.

Just purchase the 1/4 turn valve you posted, unscrew the valve body from the ferrule nut, and screw the new valve body onto the existing nut reusing the existing ferrule. Don't use any Teflon tape. The sealing surface of a ferrule joint is on the ferrule and the tapered surface inside the valve body. Teflon tape can impede a good seal and actually lead to leakage.

Oh ok. This sounds MUCH easier. I was looking at buying this compression sleeve puller removal tool (pic), but sounds like I don’t need to and was overthinking it. . Just need to unscrew and swap valves. Thanks

 

[Twowaxhack]

What if the pipe in the wall is cpvc ?

Do 1/4 turn stops ever fail ?

Are 1/4 turn stops repairable ?

How and why would a 1/4 turn stop fail ?

When is it acceptable to wrap a ferrule with Teflon tape ?

Do all stop valves for 1/2” pipe have the same insertion depth at the inlet ?

 

[MicEd69]

What if the pipe in the wall is cpvc ? (Replace all the piping with copper!)

Do 1/4 turn stops ever fail ? (Never!)

Are 1/4 turn stops repairable ? (Every single one!)

How and why would a 1/4 turn stop fail ? (They can't fail. They are made out of a secret material only known by 1/4 turn valve makers!)

When is it acceptable to wrap a ferrule with Teflon tape ? (Only on even days of the month by blind plumbers.)

Do all stop valves for 1/2” pipe have the same insertion depth at the inlet ? (Yes, for right-hand threaded valves. Left-hand threaded valves vary a lot.)

 

[Twowaxhack]

Clowns will clown and houses will flood.

I hope everyone has a having a super Sunday !

 

[cgilley]

What if the pipe in the wall is cpvc ? (Replace all the piping with copper!)

Do 1/4 turn stops ever fail ? (Never!)

Are 1/4 turn stops repairable ? (Every single one!)

How and why would a 1/4 turn stop fail ? (They can't fail. They are made out of a secret material only known by 1/4 turn valve makers!)

When is it acceptable to wrap a ferrule with Teflon tape ? (Only on even days of the month by blind plumbers.)

Do all stop valves for 1/2” pipe have the same insertion depth at the inlet ? (Yes, for right-hand threaded valves. Left-hand threaded valves vary a lot.)

Okay wise guy

 

[MicEd69]

Okay wise guy

Sorry, I just couldn't resist answering Twowaxhack like that because he is a fun guy. He often answers people with funny remarks. But here's to seriously address his issues.

I never did get an answer as to the OP's piping materials, so maybe I should have been a bit clearer. And yes, reusing ferrules is a controversial issue. But if the piping is copper, reusing the ferrule and the nut isn't an issue IMHO in this situation. If there is an issue with insertion depth or the nut not mating well to the new valve body, you may have a leak, but not a "house flooding" issue. At that point you may need a ferrule cutter or a very gentle use of a Dremel tool. You may want to use some very fine steel wool if you find some mineral deposits on the ferrule.

Yes, everything fails, including 1/4 turn valves. However, I have seen a hundred globe and gate valve failures for every ball valve failure. And no, ball valves for toilets like this are not repairable. But I also never repair the multiturn valves but rather replace them with 1/4 turn valves.

And it is never "acceptable" to wrap a ferrule with Teflon tape. I have used Teflon paste on the sealing surface of unions, but I always rely on the ferrule and nut to seal a ferrule fitting.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Twowax is correct most of the time. Because Twowax posts answer based off manufacturers recommendations and almost 40 years of experience of actually installing these plumbing valves/fittings we’re talking about.

Twowax was taught from a child by 6 family master plumbers and many journeyman plumbers going back 4 generations and to the introduction of modern indoor plumbing. That’s a better education than any school or certificate can provide.

I can’t help it I find some peoples ignorance comical……I’ve spent most of my life doing what others just “ talk “ about.

Better research a little more before posting what you “ think “ is correct.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Teflon tape over a ferrule is recommended when connecting dissimilar materials such as a metal ferrule on cpvc.

And yes, you can use metal ferrules on cpvc.

DOH !

Rebuilding fixture stops is part of everyday repair plumbing. Too bad we live in a throw away world where people have no idea how to repair what they have.

Many people flood homes by trying to stop a drip by over tightening and then later when they’re not home, the joint cracks and floods their home causing thousands in property damage. Many times this is either at the inlet or outlet of a fixture stop.

 

[TomFOhio]

Replace the valve................................