Low Toilet Bowl Levels

[Diehard]

Yeah if that would only fix the issue...... /QUOTE]

Based solely on your statements, "What I also notice is this. After flushing the bowl, it gets to its (new level ) pretty quickly and then continues to fill for another 20 or 25 seconds (I can see the water coming into the bowl) but the water level never gets any higher. The water is going somewhere but not in the bowl. Is this normal?"

If you add water slowly by hand or otherwise, the level it reaches is controlled by the weir level and nothing else. Assuming everything is static. Meaning that there is no other draining going on anywhere in the system that could have an influence on the final water elevation, such as a negative pressure.

 

[AnthonyK]

Based solely on your statements, "What I also notice is this. After flushing the bowl, it gets to its (new level ) pretty quickly and then continues to fill for another 20 or 25 seconds (I can see the water coming into the bowl) but the water level never gets any higher. The water is going somewhere but not in the bowl. Is this normal?"

If you add water slowly by hand or otherwise, the level it reaches is controlled by the weir level and nothing else. Assuming everything is static. Meaning that there is no other draining going on anywhere in the system that could have an influence on the final water elevation, such as a negative pressure.

Can you explain what you mean by negative pressure? Like maybe a clogged sewer vent?

 

[Diehard]

Can you explain what you mean by negative pressure? Like maybe a clogged sewer vent?

A negative pressure as a suction affect on the toilet trap when other fixtures are draining. Such as an inadequate vent.
But I'm not saying that's your problem. I was only qualifying my statement that the water level should never be below the toilets trap weir height when water is added after the flush ends.

A partial clog/slow draining in a common main can cause your lower than normal level; in 3 toilets but the added water should bring it back. Perhaps that additional 20 to 25 seconds of filling was not enough time and the partially clogged drain was actually still draining and pulling on the trap due to inadequate vent.

That's why I say, without any recent flush, pour a little water in the toilet bowl to see if the level rises. It should rise to it's highest possible level, which is the weir level. Then if you say it was higher than that, it had to be magic.

 

[AnthonyK]

Thank you Diehard,

So let me ask you this. If I slowly add water to the bowl and bring the level higher and then flush another toilet and then (the toilet I filled with water) its water level drops, would that suggest its a blocked vent?
Thank you!

 

[Diehard]

As others have been suggesting. Probably partial clogged sewer line but vent is possible, particularly if they are all tied together.

 

[AnthonyK]

As others have been suggesting. Probably partial clogged sewer line but vent is possible, particularly if they are all tied together.

Thank you for your time

 

[House Doc]

I've read this thread and can't believe what some of you are talking about. Diehard has the explanation for what was asked. The water level in the bowl is controlled by the toilet's trap. Period ! The "rust ring" will always be a little higher than the water level because that's where the water can slowly evaporate, leaving the dissolved rust in the water to remain. The rust in the water in the bowl remains in suspension while just over the water level it's kept damp, thus allowing more evaporation, and rust to remain on the bowl.
If you punch a hole in the side of a can you may be able to fill it to the top but it will only hold water to the height of the hole. The diagram that Diehard sent shows that idea. Once it reaches that point any more water entering the bowl just runs over the back of the trap.
Everything works well so why is everybody looking at the vent??
The only thing that seems to be a problem for AnthonyK is the rust ring. A good "rust removal" system and water treatment system will be the only way to resolve that! Good luck!

Note to wantabe's … If you don't KNOW what you're talking about just read the posts. Misinformation does not HELP!
Soap box relinquished!!

 

[AnthonyK]

I've read this thread and can't believe what some of you are talking about. Diehard has the explanation for what was asked. The water level in the bowl is controlled by the toilet's trap. Period ! The "rust ring" will always be a little higher than the water level because that's where the water can slowly evaporate, leaving the dissolved rust in the water to remain. The rust in the water in the bowl remains in suspension while just over the water level it's kept damp, thus allowing more evaporation, and rust to remain on the bowl.
If you punch a hole in the side of a can you may be able to fill it to the top but it will only hold water to the height of the hole. The diagram that Diehard sent shows that idea. Once it reaches that point any more water entering the bowl just runs over the back of the trap.
Everything works well so why is everybody looking at the vent??
The only thing that seems to be a problem for AnthonyK is the rust ring. A good "rust removal" system and water treatment system will be the only way to resolve that! Good luck!

Note to wantabe's … If you don't KNOW what you're talking about just read the posts. Misinformation does not HELP!
Soap box relinquished!!

Each week I measured it and the water level would drop about an inch each week.. (since then it has slowed maybe even stopped) The water is 3 inches below rust ring which is where the water level was at for years. the toilet is used many times a day I dont think 3 inches of water evaporates in a couple hours and the toilet upstairs is now 4 inches below the ring like there is almost no water at all in the bowl... For 10 years there was never an issue and then all of a sudden the levels drop that much? Something doesnt make sense.

Note I dont care about the rust ring I am only leaving there as a reference point, I can get rid of that in 10 minutes.

Hope that makes tings clearer.

 

[Diehard]

Yup sounds like a venting problem, if a toilet level is dropping, even when not used.

 

[AnthonyK]

Yup sounds like a venting problem, if a toilet level is dropping, even when not used.

To be clear the water level never rises to where it used to be.. It doesnt drop after filling it just never fills to where it used to.. 3 to 4 inches lower than before

 

[Diehard]

Thank you Diehard,

So let me ask you this. If I slowly add water to the bowl and bring the level higher and then flush another toilet and then (the toilet I filled with water) its water level drops, would that suggest its a blocked vent?
Thank you!

So did you ever try adding water slowly as I had suggested? You never mentioned if it rose to the original level.

 

[AnthonyK]

So did you ever try adding water slowly as I had suggested? You never mentioned if it rose to the original level.

Yes, the level did not rise. So what does that spell out?

 

[Diehard]

Yes, the level did not rise. So what does that spell out?

As I said before, "If you add water slowly by hand or otherwise, the level it reaches is controlled by the weir level and nothing else. Assuming everything is static. Meaning that there is no other draining going on anywhere in the system that could have an influence on the final water elevation, such as a negative pressure."
So as I see it, it's not possible that the level could have been 3 to 4" higher than the weir level in the toilet, when the rest of the plumbing in the house is not being used. Particularly since you say this has happen in 3 toilets, as I recall. Unless you are missing some piece of information.

EDIT: Or 3 to 4" lower than the weir level when water is slowly added.(As you had shown in your revised drawing in post #16.

 

[frodo]

Can you explain that to me? Im really trying to understand how a sewer clog lowers the toilets but no draining issues? I guess when I think of a clogged sewer line Im thinking of toilets backing up all over the floor. Any help to get me to understand that would be appreciated.

Thanks!

I am going to try...............terletollogy


Ok....So that is the terlet. NOW,,,HOW? does a partial blockage effect the water level in the terlet
It is really easy if you understand a sewer.
A sewer drains by gravity , and the P traps keep the smell out of your home. A sewer will syphon the water out of the trap if the vent is blocked.
a vents whole purpose in life is to keep the air pressure on the sewer side of the drain the same pressure as in your house. in other words it keeps the sewer from forming a syphon.
ok back to the blockage
if your sewer is blocked [partial] then water is also backed up into the vent.
So NOW..the terlet does not have a vent, The only place it can get one Is to syphon the water out of the trap and use the bowl itself as the vent.
ok, so, lets go through the water level of the terlet
you flush
water leaves bowl
ball cock starts filling the tank and bowl with water
water fills bowl to normal level
ballcock shuts off, tank is full
terlet wants a vent, pulls water out of terlet bowl
water level in bowl drops .

next question is..if sewer is blocked, why isn't water on the floor
because it is a partial blockage
it stops up the sewer, then lets the sewer rain out slowly.

In a plumbing system that is flat vented, this is typical behavior
a system that is stacked vented, this is not typical
I prefer Stack venting where possible as opposed to flat venting

 

[frodo]

I've read this thread and can't believe what some of you are talking about. Diehard has the explanation for what was asked. The water level in the bowl is controlled by the toilet's trap. Period ! The "rust ring" will always be a little higher than the water level because that's where the water can slowly evaporate, leaving the dissolved rust in the water to remain. The rust in the water in the bowl remains in suspension while just over the water level it's kept damp, thus allowing more evaporation, and rust to remain on the bowl.
If you punch a hole in the side of a can you may be able to fill it to the top but it will only hold water to the height of the hole. The diagram that Diehard sent shows that idea. Once it reaches that point any more water entering the bowl just runs over the back of the trap.
Everything works well so why is everybody looking at the vent??
The only thing that seems to be a problem for AnthonyK is the rust ring. A good "rust removal" system and water treatment system will be the only way to resolve that! Good luck!

Note to wantabe's … If you don't KNOW what you're talking about just read the posts. Misinformation does not HELP!
Soap box relinquished!!

Grand Pa had a saying
it is best to stay silent and let them think you are a fool
Than to open your mouth and prove you are a fool

 

[Diehard]

The problem I'm having is the explanation that when he slowly adds water to bring the toilet level to it's weir elevation, it doesn't rise. Yet he says it's 3 to 4 inches lower than it was.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
What do you make of it.
(Somewhat separate issue of what typically causes the fluctuating levels. I think there may be something missing in communication. I can't think of any other reason for this phenomenon.)

 

[frodo]

i do not believe the guy, he says he has a 4 bath hoe with only 1 vent
i am not swallowing that

 

[AnthonyK]

i do not believe the guy, he says he has a 4 bath hoe with only 1 vent
i am not swallowing that

Well then where are the vents. You want to see the entire roof. You will see there is ONE vent.. 3 of the 4 toilets are right above each other and the 4th is on the opposite wall of the 1st floor toilet.. Why would someone put a vent on the other side of the house when they are all stacked on top of each other? That makes absolutely no sense at all

 

[AnthonyK]

I am going to try...............terletollogy

View attachment 20821
Ok....So that is the terlet. NOW,,,HOW? does a partial blockage effect the water level in the terlet
It is really easy if you understand a sewer.
A sewer drains by gravity , and the P traps keep the smell out of your home. A sewer will syphon the water out of the trap if the vent is blocked.
a vents whole purpose in life is to keep the air pressure on the sewer side of the drain the same pressure as in your house. in other words it keeps the sewer from forming a syphon.
ok back to the blockage
if your sewer is blocked [partial] then water is also backed up into the vent.
So NOW..the terlet does not have a vent, The only place it can get one Is to syphon the water out of the trap and use the bowl itself as the vent.
ok, so, lets go through the water level of the terlet
you flush
water leaves bowl
ball cock starts filling the tank and bowl with water
water fills bowl to normal level
ballcock shuts off, tank is full
terlet wants a vent, pulls water out of terlet bowl
water level in bowl drops .

next question is..if sewer is blocked, why isn't water on the floor
because it is a partial blockage
it stops up the sewer, then lets the sewer rain out slowly.

In a plumbing system that is flat vented, this is typical behavior
a system that is stacked vented, this is not typical
I prefer Stack venting where possible as opposed to flat venting

Thanks Frodo.. the one thing is there is none of that gurgling sound they speak of which is typical with a venting issue. To me it seems like venting but without that sound, Im not sure.

 

[AnthonyK]

The problem I'm having is the explanation that when he slowly adds water to bring the toilet level to it's weir elevation, it doesn't rise. Yet he says it's 3 to 4 inches lower than it was.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
What do you make of it.
(Somewhat separate issue of what typically causes the fluctuating levels. I think there may be something missing in communication. I can't think of any other reason for this phenomenon.)

The toilet upstairs barely has any water in it at all, its like it is almost empty. That one is easily down 4 inches where as the one of the first floor has more water in it and maybe down 2 inches or a little over... Also, when the bowl fills, it reaches the level it stays at pretty quick but the toilet keeps trying to fill for at least another 20 seconds before it shuts off yet the water.. I see it pouring into the bowl, never gets the water level any higher.. Thats why when I tried what you said by slowly filling it.. same thing.. the water just drains out and the level never gets any higher...

I know this all sounds crazy. And also, there is a faint rust ring where the water used to sit for the last 2 years, I left it there as a reference point and you can see the water is way lower than where it used to sit. Again especially on the upstairs bowl which as I said is almost empty.