What's wrong with this picture?

[viki412ag]

I did not DIY this, sadly, my general contractor installed this plumbing under my kitchen sink. I know it's wrong because I can only run water in my sink for a minute, on either side, before it starts backing up into both halves of the sink. But I want to have an explanation of why it actually doesn't work.

Next step is to call a real, trusted plumber to do this correctly but I wanted to be able to explain to the GC what is actually wrong with this picture...

 

[phishfood]

[Sarcasm on]What's wrong with it is that a GC is not a plumber, and shouldn't pretend to be one.[Sarcasm off]

The right hand bowl is double trapped, which is a code violation.

The right hand bowl's trap has ~ 8" to 10" of trap seal, which is a code violation, maximum of 4".

The right hand bowl is S trapped, a code violation.

The dishwasher drain hose does not have either an air gap fitting or a high loop.

When you have the plumber out to redo the piping, have him snake the drain line, as I don't see anything under there that should cause the left hand bowl to back up.

 

[phishfood]

Oh, and while I am not an electrician, I don't think that the exposed plastic sheathed wire is up to code either. I am used to seeing that protected by flexible conduit.

 

[Caduceus]

If you have already paid for the job be sure to be comp'd for the service from another plumber and get it in writing from the GC. Re-do's are usually a little more expensive than new installs. There is so much wrong with that, most plumbers on this forum are probably at a loss for words...except phish...and they will be posting it on a "wall of shame", obviously noting that this is another GC job, not a DIY. You probably could have done a perfect job, yourself, with some help from this forum, viki.

 

[johnjh2o]

[Sarcasm on] Chop it with an ax, I think it's still growing.

 

[Zanne]

This reminds me that I need to take a picture of the plumbing under my sink and post it. I'm pretty sure its not done properly. I have the same problem of it backing up.

I do hope the general contractor compensates you for getting a real plumber to fix it.

 

[viki412ag]

phishfood - I really appreciate your reply and details. Even the sarcasm. Sadly, this joke's on me.

Normally I do hire individuals who are experts in their own field, but this was part of a much larger kitchen remodel project, and he did a fine job putting up cabinets and drywalling and such and this was just included in the labor costs. I figured something as common as plumbing a kitchen sink couldn't be screwed up... guess I was wrong. Clearly plumbing is not in his bag of tricks and I do plan to pass along a copy of the bill to him after this is fixed by our trusty plumber.

I wonder if the codes here in Pittsburgh, PA are any diff then FL? Is there such a thing as a city or county plumbing inspector that would write up a formal violation for me so that I have proof of the problem when I send him the bill for the rework?

thanks everyone else for your input as well!

 

[Caduceus]

phishfood - I really appreciate your reply and details. Even the sarcasm. Sadly, this joke's on me.

Normally I do hire individuals who are experts in their own field, but this was part of a much larger kitchen remodel project, and he did a fine job putting up cabinets and drywalling and such and this was just included in the labor costs. I figured something as common as plumbing a kitchen sink couldn't be screwed up... guess I was wrong. Clearly plumbing is not in his bag of tricks and I do plan to pass along a copy of the bill to him after this is fixed by our trusty plumber.

I wonder if the codes here in Pittsburgh, PA are any diff then FL? Is there such a thing as a city or county plumbing inspector that would write up a formal violation for me so that I have proof of the problem when I send him the bill for the rework?

thanks everyone else for your input as well!

I'm here in Pittsburgh, too. Some of the codes differ slightly because we are governed by the county health department, not the state, and have had an established plumbing code since 1969. There isn't too much of a difference between regions when it comes to the basic rules and regs.
A contractor practicing plumbing where any part of the plumbing system has been altered has violated Article XV ACHD plumbing code and could be subjected to fines or even more severe punishment. The county has been cracking down on unauthorized work lately and making examples of violators.
Here's some contact info that may be handy:
Allegheny County Health Department Plumbing Section
3901 Penn Avenue, Building #5
Pittsburgh, PA 15224-1318
Phone: 412.578.8036 FAX: 412.578.8053

The plumbing section receives no public money and supports itself financially through license fees, plan submittals and inspection fees. So you see how important it is for them to enforce the code as well as protect the public from hack work.

 

[Caduceus]

Looking at the height of the disposal drain and the drain into the wall, you may have a bigger project than it seems. You may want to contact the GC before calling the health department and see if he can have a registered plumber look at it first, on his own dime. Once you call the inspectors office, the ball starts rolling and doesn't stop easily. If you get no satisfaction from the GC and he starts ignoring your calls, then your only recourse could be calling the ACHD. Sorry to say I've seen too much of this in our area and some customers get so frustrated they pay for the redo out of pocket just to get the job done.
If you would like a reference for a reputable plumber, let me know what part of Pgh. you're in and I'll see what I can do.

 

[camaroderrick73]

Kind of looks like you put a deep sink in an older house without lowering the waste arm coming out of the wall. That could be your biggest issue. You'll never get your grade at all if the drain outlet in higher than the drain for the garbage disposal.

definitely need to get a lic plumber in there to see if its doable with the system you have or lowering the waste arm is needed.

good luck and please keep us updated

 

[viki412ag]

Caduceus, Thanks for the info on inspections. I really have no choice but to call my real plumber and pay him out of pocket because the GC has mostly stopped responding to our calls and emails because I believe he's tired of us calling out his mistakes. He owes us some parts, so unfortunately I'll have to deal with him in mid July when those parts finally come in. This plumbing won't be the only job we're going to have to hire someone else for to redo. So I get the feeling he'll be getting these bills with a legal note attached, otherwise he won't pay....

Oh, btw... The only thing in that plumbing setup that didn't change is where the drain goes into the wall, so I'm not sure what issue you're seeing there.... The new sink is much deeper though so the disposal itself hangs much lower in perspective... If that's of any relevance....

We do have a quality, reputable plumber who we've had complete several major and minor projects, with excellent results, so we're good on that front. Thanks. I actually emailed him copy if that pic yesterday too. He replied he'll be using it for his next "what not to do class."

 

[viki412ag]

Kind of looks like you put a deep sink in an older house without lowering the waste arm coming out of the wall. That could be your biggest issue. You'll never get your grade at all if the drain outlet in higher than the drain for the garbage disposal.

definitely need to get a lic plumber in there to see if its doable with the system you have or lowering the waste arm is needed.

good luck and please keep us updated

You are spot on! Yes, the new sink is deeper. He never mentioned this would be a problem. Surprise, surprise... It is a 1960s home.

 

[camaroderrick73]

I tell people all the time. General contractors are not plumbers. You don't want me to hammer a nail in with a pipe wrench do you?

Unfortunately, this might mean you need to open the back of the cabinet and replace plumbing in the wall. At this time you might want to think about installing a cleanout if you don't have one on the exterior.

 

[viki412ag]

I tell people all the time. General contractors are not plumbers. You don't want me to hammer a nail in with a pipe wrench do you?

Unfortunately, this might mean you need to open the back of the cabinet and replace plumbing in the wall. At this time you might want to think about installing a cleanout if you don't have one on the exterior.

Like I said before, we've always hired individuals for their unique skills. In this case we let it go, it was part of the 'bundle' and something as common as a kitchen sink. What's funny is he offered to outsource the floor installation and electrical work to 3rd parties licensed in those specialties, but he never offered a plumber. Thankfully, we hired our own floor and electrical pros. After seeing his quality of work, I shiver thinking about what his other recommendations would have screwed up considering what he finds acceptable.

What's a 'cleanout' out of curiosity?

 

[camaroderrick73]

What's a 'cleanout' out of curiosity?

A cleanout is an access to clear the drain if ever your line backs up. it should be 2 inch either under your sink or on the exterior of the house. a 60s house like yours might not have one. this would save you time and a lot of money when the plumber comes out to snake.

 

[phishfood]

It looks to me as though the drain height SHOULD work for the disposal. Maybe a little tight, but I think it is usable.

 

[Zanne]

I wonder if your GC would respond if you let him know that failure to respond meant you were going to report him for violations and that in addition to having to pay for having the stuff redone, he was going to have to pay fines and would have it on his record that he was violating the rules. The health dept. does keep track of people who violate the rules and sometimes they even let potential customers know about it. That could cause him to lose some business.

I hope you'll be able to get your parts from him.

 

[viki412ag]

yeah, I'm afraid to start throwing threats out yetto the GC. I don't want him to get so upset that he won't even get us our parts. Although I think my husband might feel differently.that's why I was thinking maybe we have the inspector come out, but it sounds like that might create more of a headache for me then I'd like.I think when my good plumber will get here, I will simply work with him to document any local violations as evidence prior to him fixing it.and of course I have that lovely pic to prove things.

 

[Caduceus]

I saved the pic, viki. As your plumber may confirm, we get to know everybody at the health department very well, from the chief to the inspectors in the field. See what your guy has to say, I think he and I will be on the same page as to what the next step is. Hope you can get this taken care of soon and keep us updated. Your experiences are very valuable to many other consumers who visit our forum.