Tankless Help

[paulgrey]

So, my family plumber was going to install a Navien NPE 240a for me...unfortunately, it seems like he went into exile...Most of the folks i have talked to tell me "get a Navien".. .."only use Navien"....so i called a local plumber and his quote was thru the roof.....it looks like i may have to resort to one of the big box guys..but they dont install Navien........only.....Rinnai....AO Smith...Rheem among others....i personally dont care who makes it as long as it works properly....i live near Philly if that matters....I see the gentleman from San Fran area is a big Navien advocate , but what are some thoughts from others....i dont need the rolls royce but i dont want the yugo either...willing to pay someone fairly for their skill...but Navien seems to have limited installers and support....thanks for the help

 

[Rickyman]

I’d go Navien

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Go with what’s available. Here in NC it’s mostly Rinnai. All the plumbers can install them and all the plumbers can service them so support from the manufacturer must be very good. There were only two or three people that deal with Navien around here.

 

[FishScreener]

My first question is do you have the infrastructure to support one, you need a large enough feed to keep it happy, whether it is gas or electric. Frequently on retrofits, you will need to spend at least as much on the energy supply side as on the heater install.

Before they increased the energy standards for tank type, the tankless were quite a bit more efficient. After the increased standards for the tank top went into effect, it got to the point that the energy savings for a tankless couldn’t pay off the install cost in a reasonable time frame.

I only install them in buildings with a high demand for hot water, such as shower houses, where 6 to 14-person crews returning from trail work in the wilderness area are housed. After a ten day hitch out in the field, all of them want showers. So the water heaters need to have enough hot water for about 6 long showers each, and it only happens once every week and a half. So, the loss from the tank type between uses adds up.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

I was partially bitten by the tankless bug in 2002 when I needed to replace the original 50 gallon tank water heater (a power vent model) in my home.

Unfortunately at the time, there were no readily available condensing tankless; all required costly venting. In addition to that, the code requirement for venting with height off the ground, and adjacency to windows etc. made it nearly impossible to locate in my home! I had one place that may have worked, but was so far--about 50 feet--from the existing HWH that installation costs and time and trouble were just prohibitive.

Today, the installation is a lot easier with condensing models and PVC venting.

As others may have noted with my other posts, I did use a tankless (Takagi TK3, 199,000 BTU) for a driveway heat system in 2009. I chose that brand and model since it was the only available brand that was certified for use in closed loop recirculation systems; the others would void the warranty if so connected. I think I paid about $1,000 for the TK3, but nearly $400 for a few pieces of required Takagi SS venting including a wall thimble, elbows, etc. Thought the unit was in and working fine for 10 years of snow removal before I sold the home, I decided I'll live with conventional HWH for domestic use.

Takagi was very big in 2009 but seems to have been surpassed by Rinnai in availability and domestic use from what I can see.

 

[paulgrey]

thanks for the replies....i dont think gas capacity is an issue...neighbor in identical house installed a navien a few months ago...seems to like it....i am very confused...i have an acer swirlbath jetted tub in master bath , which is the farthest appliance in the house..2800 sq feet....all i want to do is get enough hot water into that tub so my little lady can have a nice soak...the 50 gal bradford white 40k btu installed 17 years ago by builder never supplied enough hot water...plumber i spoke to today is saying i could use a 50 gal 65k or 75 k btu tank style....he is working up options for me....i not sure the gallon size of the tub...came with the house ...its just the 2 of us here at the house now,,,,do i need a tankless...bigger storage capacity....a separate demand heater just for the tub isnt a great option for me because of the layout...thanks for any help....btw the owner of the plumbing outfit didnt seem to fully embrace tankless...maybe old school??...service headaches??....i have to go brush up on btu theory and capacity and recovery charts....

 

[paulgrey]

i did relax on my Navien only position....guy at work swears by Rinnai....and looks like Home Depot sells and installs them...so theres an option....i dont know how helpful they are on sizing recommendations though....

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Home Depot or Lowe’s installs nothing: only licensed plumbers working as independents for them will.

Go to the Rinnai website.

Make a couple of outright obvious choices: NG or LP?

What kind of efficiency do you need/want/can afford? Part of that answer will steer you to condensing or conventional venting. They have widely vary installation costs and requirements.

How big is the house? If 4-5 bedrooms go with the largest. 2-3 bedrooms? Maybe the medium. Avoid the smallest units, you may only regret it. Size to the house, not who currently lives there.

Only one model will fall out of this brief analysis.

 

[paulgrey]

thanks Mitchell...i will check the Rinnai site...having said that, it seems i am sizing to accommodate the jetted tub , if nothing else....house is a 4 bed , 2.5 ba....hopefully Rinnai has live phone support as well.....Good call....