suggestions for a water softener for new home with extremely hard water & high sodium

[rodeorulz]

We are needing to find a water softener for our new house and are struggling a bit. It will need to be paired with a Reverse Osmosis System (I will likely create a new thread for that subject) as well as need to be able to fit in an approximately 48" deep crawlspace. Our water test results came back and we definitely need to work on our water quality! Below is our water test results...any help, suggestions, etc is greatly appreciated!

(all numbers are reported in Milligrams per Liter unless otherwise stated)
Conductivity, umhos/cm @ 25C = 4110
pH, Units = 7.01
Total Dissolved Solids = 2239

Sodium, (Na) = 713
Potassium, (K) = 6
Calcium, (Ca) = 339
Magnesium, (M) = 103

Sulfate, (SO4) = 922
Chloride, (Cl) = 140
Carbonate, (CO3) = 0
Bicarbonate (HCO3) = 1952
Nitrate (NO3) = 2.3
Total Alkalinity (as CACO3) = 1601
Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 1269
Total Hardness as Grains per Gallon = 75

Sodium Absorption Rate (SAR) = 8.7

Iron levels were unfortunately not tested.

We're not really wanting to add more Sodium to our water to soften it unless it absolutely necessary or if the RO system will/should reduce the sodium levels once the water reaches that system. I've read about using Potassium Chloride to soften and am wondering about opinions on that (I realize cost-wise the Potassium Chloride pellets are much more expensive for the same amount of Sodium Chloride pellets). I'm also curious about the salt-free water "conditioners"...I'm guessing this is probably not a fix for our extremely hard water but figured I'd ask for opinions on that too Also, is there any reason, other than convenience & ease of use, that a water softener cannot be put in the crawlspace? Our entrance to our crawlspace is pretty good sized so it shouldn't be an issue getting the unit into the crawlspace.

I have spoke to a local source about our water and what solutions he suggests, but thought I'd ask here too

If you have suggestions regarding the RO System they are welcome here as well We were contemplating a Point of Entry System and Point of Use System but after speaking with my local source I'm thinking we may go back to the idea of a Point of Use System as long as we can figure out the Water Softener.

 

[speedbump]

The only water softener that will work for you is a twin tank unit. One that switches from tank to tank so you don't run out of soft water. I have had hard water but never anything like 75 gpg. You are going to go through a lot of salt. Potassium chloride doesn't work as good as plain old salt and is far more expensive. There is really no benefit that I know of other than tricking people into thinking they are getting a salt free unit. Your TDH is off the charts. 500 is the max for drinking water and yours exceeded that by about 5 times.
In my opinion you need a point of entry RO unit, but that water needs to be softened and the iron removed first which is going to be costly.

I would stick with a local guy who deals with this water on a day to day basis. He would be the best one to recommend the right equipment.

 

[KULTULZ]

(IMO) ...

As stated you have a very complex water problem(s). You need to consult at a minimum three water treatment companies on the net to hear all suggestions and advice. Make sure the company and salesman are certified.

I would give you three but am unsure if it is allowed on this forum.

-Selecting a Home Water Treatment System - NSF-

 

[rodeorulz]

speedbump - Will a twin tank unit fit in a crawlspace? I'm curious...will a regular water softener (using sodium chloride vs potassium chloride) still increase the sodium levels of the drinking water even when combined with an RO System? Our Sodium levels are so high right now that I'm not sure we want them to be any higher (unless the RO system also reduces sodium levels?). I'm guessing you mean the potassium chloride is less efficient at actually softening the water than sodium chloride is? Cost-wise I realize the inefficiency there, but what about the potential health risks of so much sodium chloride being added to the water? (My husband and I, while still "young" and "healthy" do have a family history of high blood pressure.)
We're hoping our TDS will decrease after we run more water out of our well. We have already ran quite a bit out, but running more out may help reduce that number again I've read that a max of 1500 TDS is suitable according to the EPA. With the filters the RO System uses I'm assuming that our TDS should also decrease in our drinking water, is that correct thinking?

KULTULZ - I'll check out the link you shared, thank you!

Thank you both for your quick replies!! It is greatly appreciated

Yes, we're having a heck of a time with the complexity of our water and choosing what system will work "best" for us :S I need to speak with some of the neighbors too and see what they all do for their water, I'd assume most of them have similar problems with their water, but maybe not...we won't know until we ask.

Do any of you know if the Hardness number we were given takes into consideration the amount of Sodium & Potassium in our water? Or does it solely look at the Calcium & Carbonate numbers. Or would I need to call the lab and ask?

 

[speedbump]

A twin tank unit would be as hard and maybe a bit harder to install in a crawl space. However if it's 4' I would have been over joyed to work in it compared to what I was used to in my younger days. Some of them you had to crawl in and you couldn't get up on your knees.
The hardness number was on your test:
Total Hardness as Grains per Gallon = 75
That's what the softener has to handle. The other items would probably have to be removed with the RO. Taking out the hardness and iron first makes the RO last a lot longer and the RO membrane is the expensive part of the unit.
With your water, RO is probably the only thing that is going to make your water usable. I don't know what is acceptable for sodium in water, but to remove it the RO is the only thing that will do it.

 

[rodeorulz]

Yes, our crawlspace depth is definitely going to help make some of this "easier" for sure!
Ok, so that Hardness value does take into consideration the sodium level already in the water? So even though there is already 713 mG/L of sodium in our water we would still need more sodium added to reduce the hardness? (Sorry, I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.) So we should expect the sodium levels to decrease, from whatever the level of sodium in our water is after the water softener has done it's job, at the point of use of the drinking water (if we only do a point of use RO of course). From what I've found in my research is that good quality water may have as much as 115 mG/L of Sodium and the EPA suggests a max of 20 mG/L for people on low salt diets or those that have high blood pressure. So according to those numbers our sodium levels are extremely high.
I hope on our next water test that they can test for iron levels as I would certainly like to know what they are so we can make any more adjustments that we might need to make.

Thank you again, you are definitely helping me understand things better

 

[speedbump]

I think I mislead you. The total hardness in grains per gallon is only hardness. It has nothing to do with sodium. The softener needs it's own salt supply to operate. The sodium in your water will have to be removed with RO. I'll bet your not going to like the taste or no taste of RO water. Before going any further, have your water tested for iron also.

 

[rodeorulz]

Ok that is making much more sense now. Yes, I've already drank some of the water and it is definitely not the best tasting water. I mostly didn't care for it because it seemed a bit "sandy"/dirty (I imagine that is because of the high TDS?). I have spent a majority of my life drinking untreated well water so I'm sure RO treated water will be different for sure. But the last few years I've been drinking city water, would it taste similar to that?

Thanks again!

 

[KULTULZ]

Water hardness is determined by the amounts of iron, magnesium and calcium in the water.

-
Sodium in Drinking Water-

You would use a POU (Point of Use) RO to final filter your drinking and cooking water. A whole house RO System would be $$$.

 

[speedbump]

Hard to say. Different water tastes different to everybody. Usually moving from one house to the other people say the water tastes funny or nasty when it is really just different. Nothing wrong with it, it's just not what they are used to.

I like hard water for drinking. It actually has a taste where RO or distilled water has none. It's just barely wet!

 

[KULTULZ]

The water will taste differently from spigot to spigot according to what minerals and ratios is in the source water. RO water will have no tastes as all minerals have been removed.

 

[donald_w]

RO water is essentially distilled water. While technically it may have no taste, if you are used to drinking water with minerals, it will certainly taste different - to me, it tastes terrible.

I would suggest that you go buy a couple gallons of distilled water and try drinking it.

 

[rodeorulz]

Haha, well I have drank distilled water before and yah it doesn't taste real great at all!
After showing our plumber and our well driller our water test results they are convinced something is messed up with our results (like lab error).
We're also wondering if the time between when we collected the water and when it was tested may have made a difference? It was +/- 96 hours before we were able to get the lab our water. we tried at about 12-20 hours after collection and we found out they were closed at noon that Friday, then they were out when my husband tried stopping that Monday, so it was Tuesday when we finally got them the water samples.

Any more advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[speedbump]

I wouldn't think time in a bottle would change the chemistry. But 75 is very hard. I have seen it harder, so it's not out of the question.

 

[KULTULZ]

After showing our plumber and our well driller...

Are they certified to diagnose water test results?

-WATER QUALITY ASSOCIATION-

About the only thing that is time sensitive is testing for radon.

 

[rodeorulz]

Haha, well I don't know, but I'm sure they have seen plenty of water test results (and ones in the area where our well is) that I imagine they know much more than I do
One thing our well driller pointed out was, that given some of our high numbers in the water test report, the amount of water we pumped out directly on the ground should have left a hard, white crust and it hasn't left much, if any.
Regardless, we're going to redo our water test and quiz the lab. Maybe there is a reason they offered to redo our test at no charge!
And yeah I wouldn't think the make up of the water would change in that 4 days but I'm certainly not certified to diagnose water test results But I don't think it would be entirely unlikely that the positive bacteria test might have been an error because of the 4 days or that they could have made a lab error with our entire water test.
Before we go investing in the water softener and RO system we need to be more certain on things so we can purchase the right equipment that is best for our water

Thanks again!

 

[KULTULZ]

One thing our well driller pointed out was, that given some of our high numbers in the water test report, the amount of water we pumped out directly on the ground should have left a hard, white crust and it hasn't left much, if any.

Calcium, for the most part, will stay mainly suspended in the water. Where you will see calcium deposits mainly is in the WH tank as heating calcium enriched water will cause the calcium to fall out of suspension.

Is the lab where you had the analysis done certified? Doesn't sound so.

 

[speedbump]

Is the lab where you had the analysis done certified? Doesn't sound so.

What's this certified stuff. Anybody with half a brain and a good HACH test kit can test for iron, hardness and PH. And be very accurate if they can read the instructions.
I have never heard of anyone becoming certified to test water except maybe a lab, and they wouldn't be a lab without the required certifications anyhow.

 

[KULTULZ]

The OP has had a water analysis which is not known to be accurate and has had it read by a plumber and a driller supposedly and they can't seem to make tails or heads of it.

Either it is done correctly in sequence or his problems will not be corrected and have wasted a lot of money.

Are you certified? You sell filtration don't you?

 

[speedbump]

Yes I sell filtration and have since 1962 but have never been certified nor have I ever heard of any certification for testing water for domestic filtration.