small apt bldg: low flow/low pressure questions (& sandbagging plumber?)

[palpally]

Hello all:

I am a resident of a "luxury condo" two-story apartment building w/two two-story townhouses and about 30 units (Los Angeles), built ca.1985. Townhouses' upper floors are ad-ons which sit on the roof. Month-month tenant; I reside in one of the two townhouses. For more than 6 months I've been asking my landlord to fix the water pressure in my unit. The downstairs portion of the unit suffers tremendous water pressure variation- from a trickle to a hand-stinging deluge- moment to moment; no confirmable pattern; upstairs water not engaged. For that matter, the upstairs water pressure also varies very noticeably. To make matters worse- the adjoining unit is the other townhouse, and it seems to me (from listening) that whenever they use their water, especially their upstairs water, my water pressure suffers. The pressure variation seems to occur most frequently during peak use hours, but other units I've checked don't have any issue EVER.

Finally about 6 weeks ago the landlord sent the bldg plumber (employee of landlord's mgmt co).

The bldg plumber says no one else has complained of any water issues. As noted, I've been to other units while the water in my unit was a trickle and theirs was perfectly fine. I have taken and sent a dozen films showing the issue; the plumber himself has witnessed the dramatic variation in-person. After some unknown repair attempt (conducted while I was at work), the landlord's plumber finally tells me "I'm stumped and have tried everything." I've been asking for two weeks for an update since then with no reply. The municipality is not the issue- again, I witnessed that at least several other units do not have this issue.

How likely is it that the plumber is really "stumped" and cannot even properly diagnose the issue? I know little or nothing about plumbing, but I suspect his claims of frustration are either based in ignorance or are outright lies calculated to protect the landlord's pocketbook. I do know that some plumbing contractors use too-narrow diameter pipes which create flow/pressure problems but I have no training or context to evaluate.

Can anyone weigh-in on this? How complex could it be to Dx a two-story, 30-unit plumbing system with a water flow/pressure issue in one unit? To fix the water flow/pressure in one unit? What tools are available for Dx? What questions should I ask/what would you recommend in general re:getting the landlord to properly fix the issue? While I don't want to get evicted, I do want to get what I'm paying for. Would rather not waste my time in a retaliatory eviction suit but surely will if necessary.

Thank you in advance,
pal

 

[frodo]

sounds like a pressure reducing valve [PRV] gone bad.

do you know where the water for your unit enters?

is their a shut off valve for your unit ?

if you have a prv, it will be located by the shut off for your unit.

find it and post a picture

 

[palpally]

Hello-

Thank you for the fast, knowledgeable reply. I will need to investigate/research this over the next few days. I am not familiar with most aspects of plumbing- and I do not know where the water enters my rental townhouse or whether there's a shut off valve or prv for the unit.

Still I am generally rather technical--- I build internal combustion motors, complex enterprise level computer networks, audio amplifiers, and many other fun bits--- and I'll find out in the next few days and post the info in this thread.

Meanwhile I have to wonder how the heck any decent plumber would not have tried those things, but I don't know if the guy is even a journeyman plumber...

Thanks again and more shortly,
Pal

 

[SHR]

Your "plumber" was not a plumber. As you stated, he is an employee of the management company. Therefore no plumbing knowledge.

 

[palpally]

Update:

I cannot access the water feed to my townhouse- appears to be located in a "mechanical room" that is locked. On the roof is a massive water heater combo unit- seems that water comes from the municipality up to the roof, then fed down to all the units. The roof water heater/piping has several prv's and shut off valves, along with additional inline equipment that I cannot ID.

It is important for me to note that my fixture temperature setting has zero effect- ie., the pressure variation I'm describing occurs independent of water temp.

Now, down in the garage below all the apt units, running along and into the ceiling, I found another huge bell-shaped prv and a pressure gauge (both close together) inline on some large piping. No other prv or pressure gauge was found in the garage ceiling pipes. The pressure was varying very slowly (over 10 mins) b/w 9 o'clock (low) and 12 o'clock (mid) positions. It's almost impossible to get a correlation b/w the varying gauge readouts and my water performance- takes too long to run back and forth and I am alone at the moment.

Monday I'll be able to confirm a great deal more I hope- the landlord said he would contact me then. I'll advise after that conversation.

Thanks!

Yours,
Pal

EDIT: I found the "plumber" jackass on the web/fb/etc.- 100% verified- it's him. and per http://www.cslb.ca.gov/ he's not a licensed contractor (see CA law- no such thing as licensed plumber in CA). +1 to member SHR

EDIT2: Been researching prv configs. The garage pipe is clearly the input main for the bldg. Giant single prv with single downstream gauge only. No upstream gauge. Not dual inline or parallel prv config as I had hoped to see in apt bldg per Watts advices. Downstream pressure ranges from 50 to 100. I can see it drop as I put my ear to the pipe and hear someone engage the water flowing to their apt. Once it drops to 50, my townhouse water performance becomes awful. About 1/2 output compared to when the downstream gauge reads 100. I can confirm that my townhouse water flow is directly responding to the fluctuation on the mains downstream pressure. I noted that ~2-3 units running their water will drop the measured downstream pressure from 100 to 75. Not looking good considering there are 28 apts in the bldg.

I still cannot access my specific townhouse water input- locked up as I noted above. I wonder if the 50-100 downstream mains fluctuation is party at issue(?) Too bad there's no upstream gauge- no way to tell what is happening with the municipally-supplied main upstream pressure at all! Thoughts?

 

[havasu]

I'm curious as to who pays the water bill? If it is the building owner, as you know, California is under a strict water conservation program and he may just be tightening the valve.

 

[Mr_David]

So it seems you have a common water system hot and cold.
water pressure over 80 psi is considered excessive. can you read any tags that is on the prv? Usually have on them adjustable limits. 50-65psi is ideal.
Wilkens, Zurn, & Watts normal range is 25-75psi. Some have a higher range.

if it's fluctuating between 50 and 100 then the prv needs to be replaced.
But that may not be the only problem you are having.

Do you have a garage below unit and is ther any exposed water lines suspended from ceiling. look to see if there are any lines going up into your units or the unit below you. Do they have valves on them if so snap a photo.

 

[frodo]

you can get one of these at a hardware store. disconnect the hose on your clothes washer machine.

install gauge, see what your pressure is

 

[palpally]

Hello:

@havasu:
bldg owner pays. re:valve tightening- if he was doing so, he could have easily said so and blamed the drought- he would have easily been rid of me that way. but he has not- instead he has ignored the issue for months and finally sent an unlicensed plumber, so I doubt that's the case.

@Mr_David
yes there are lines running up to various units- cannot trace the lines though. no, there are no legible tags. no valves in garage ceiling pipes apart from prv on main input that i described. cars parked in areas directly below and hard to see.
***how do I know if the main prv needs to be replaced if I cannot check the upstream (municip. main supply) pressure? there is only a downsteam gauge- there is no upsteam gauge so how can I rule out fluctuating upstream (municip. main supply) pressure?

@frodo
no washer/dryer in my unit- there's a community w/d room. very common for Los Angeles.

Thank you again for your help and insights!

Yours,
Pal

 

[frodo]

the main upstream supply pressure can be checked

by removing tub spout and install gauge. you need ,, 1/2'' fip x male hose adapter and gauge i showed

or

disconnect washer and install gauge..you need, gauge i showed

or

disconnect toilet supply from bottom of tank, install gauge , you need, 1/2'' mip x male hose fitting and gauge i showed

 

[palpally]

@frodo
are you referring to the bldg main or the main for my townhouse? i've been referring to the prv and downstream gauge on the _bldg_ main. as I've said, the main for my townhouse is MIA- it may be in a locked room and I cannot access to verify without landlord opening the door. i cannot see how i can check the upstream pressure on the bldg main by the methods you describe (checking at fixtures inside my townhouse). please clarify.

also -there is no washer/dryer in my townhouse; I cannot tamper with community washer/dryer (there are cameras). I could check my toilet, but again- I've been talking about the bldg main prv and downstream gauge. if I measure the upstream pressure for the feed into my townhouse, I still cannot access the prv/downstream gauge for my specific townhouse feed (if they exist), as it seems they are located in a locked room.

Yours,
Pal

 

[Mr_David]

Is there a sink in the laundry room or any hose bids on the property in the common area? laundry sink often have a spout that you can attach a hose to and you can check it there with a gauge

 

[frodo]

throw a towel over the camera, in the laundry room LOL