On demand or tankless?

[maccini]

Hi everyone,


I have a 50 gallon Maytag series 12 gas tank that was installed June of 2002. It just started leaking from the bottom. I'm in Westford, MA and the water is very hard here.

Our house was built in 1965. We have 2 baths and its only my wife and I and my 12 yo daughter. My other is off at college. We barely use the tub, mostly all showers. Mostly showers back to back and occasionally at the same time.

MY Question:
I see tankless water heaters have become more popular. Is it worth switching over? Do the tankless units last longer?

We don't have an issue with the tank that we have, it produces plenty of hot water for us. I just want to get the best bang for the buck. I have searched the web and there is so much contradiction out there. I figure ... why not ask the professionals!

I'm thinking its going to cost more up front, but the energy savings probably offsets the cost and makes it comparable to replacing the tank with another.

Thanks for your help!

 

[CT18]

I as a plumber have installed many tank less and many brands. I do not and will not have one. I installed one at mom and dads because he insisted. He has regretted that day for many years now. You need to check gas service, may need upgrade. They cut flow dramatically when multiple fixtures are in use. You could possibly need to have a recirc line, if not long runs take forever to get hot water. Last summer mom and dad were down 10 days waiting on warranty part from overseas. It will take you years to recoup the supposed savings. You also have to have them flushed yearly and if you dont, bye bye warranty.

Companies like to put the hard sell on because they are a money maker for them. 50 gallon power vent for me.

 

[maccini]

Thanks for the info.

What tanks do you suggest? Maytag series twelve model HN41250Q is what I have and it lasted 13.5 years without any maintenance. I'd like something that will last and efficient. What do most people on this forum have?

 

[phishfood]

If you have hard water and don't want a softener, don't get a tankless. Considering that you are in Michigan, your ground water is really cold, so you would need a big unit to keep up with typical demand.,

 

[stevemachine]

I as a plumber have installed many tank less and many brands. I do not and will not have one. I installed one at mom and dads because he insisted. He has regretted that day for many years now. You need to check gas service, may need upgrade. They cut flow dramatically when multiple fixtures are in use. You could possibly need to have a recirc line, if not long runs take forever to get hot water. Last summer mom and dad were down 10 days waiting on warranty part from overseas. It will take you years to recoup the supposed savings. You also have to have them flushed yearly and if you dont, bye bye warranty.

Companies like to put the hard sell on because they are a money maker for them. 50 gallon power vent for me.

Agree completely. 50 gal power vent is my personal choice. I like AO smith the best, but john wood, bradford white and rheem are also good brands

 

[KULTULZ]

I as a plumber have installed many tank less and many brands. I do not and will not have one. I installed one at mom and dads because he insisted. He has regretted that day for many years now.

* You need to check gas service, may need upgrade.

* They cut flow dramatically when multiple fixtures are in use.

* You could possibly need to have a recirc line, if not long runs take forever to get hot water.

Last summer mom and dad were down 10 days waiting on warranty part from overseas. It will take you years to recoup the supposed savings. You also have to have them flushed yearly and if you dont, bye bye warranty.

Companies like to put the hard sell on because they are a money maker for them. 50 gallon power vent for me.

The needed gas service supply would be figured at sale along with the needed flow rate for the house?

A tank water heater will also have a hot water delivery lag, correct?

I am not defending tank less (I do not see their supposed value either - other than POU) but just saying many are not spec'd correctly? And once installed and is found lacking in performance, no one knows you.

I once had a HVAC salesman come to the house and first question he asked is what AC tonnage I need...

I knew I was in trouble at that point...

 

[CT18]

I am not defending tank less (I do not see their supposed value either - other than POU) but just saying many are not spec'd correctly? And once installed and is found lacking in performance, no one knows you.

This is what we as the installers were running into. Salesman not knowing product or just trying to push commission sale through. Then as installers we are left trying to answer questions and fix issues.

I would say gas sizing, hot water delivery and flow rates were biggest complaints. I seen drifting show and leaves take out the exhaust. I have seen warranty voids because no yearly cleaning when homeowner claimed they never knew. I have had homeowners pissed about the 75 dollar yearly flush.

 

[spcwaters]

We do not discriminate against tankless, as long as it's a Navien, and gas powered.

IMO Navien has cornered the market.

2" venting, 1/2" gasline compatable, stainless steel components and exchangers, not to mention a built in buffer tank and recirc.

We once installed Rinnai exclusively, man were they a pain to install, and every customer complained about how long it took get hot water. Since the switch, no complaints.

 

[spcwaters]

This is why I do not recommend electric, on demand heaters. (Big Instahots for a whole house) this customer had 2 installed. IMO, they pull too much power, the resistors blow and it's dangerous, the back of this motherboard is coated in carbon from the flame, when the resistor decided to blow.

 

[KULTULZ]

This is what we as the installers were running into. Salesman not knowing product or just trying to push commission sale through. Then as installers we are left trying to answer questions and fix issues.

I would say gas sizing, hot water delivery and flow rates were biggest complaints. I seen drifting show and leaves take out the exhaust. I have seen warranty voids because no yearly cleaning when homeowner claimed they never knew. I have had homeowners pissed about the 75 dollar yearly flush.

HOME DESPARADO DEALS?

I bought a HVAC system upgrade years ago from them and the contractor they sent over was a little inept and of course disappeared shortly thereafter.

Once they have entered the house and begin, the party is over.

 

[phishfood]

Water quality is important with a tankless.

At a bare minimum, you need to test for hardness and iron before installing.

If you read the install manual, it will tell you the allowable parameters for the above. It will tell you at what point you should flush yearly, and at what point the water should be treated. The customer should be fully informed of what regular maintenance will be required to keep the manufacturer warranty valid

 

[Jamesplumbing06]

Agree completely. 50 gal power vent is my personal choice. I like AO smith the best, but john wood, bradford white and rheem are also good brands

That's the 4 major builders of water heaters. Any brand at lowes or Home Depot is made by one of these companies. Just look for mailing address of brand you want then go pay less money. I have worked at a.o. Smith in Ashland city Tn. Wanna know the difference in "state" water heater and whirlpool? Stickers.just get the 6 year warranty heater. If your handy or patient this will save you money. Those big box stores take it back every day. You can usually replace a heater yourself 4times before a "2 page" plumbing company can once. Just remember. You not the company pays for advertising

 

[KnarlyCarl]

We do not discriminate against tankless, as long as it's a Navien, and gas powered.

IMO Navien has cornered the market.

2" venting, 1/2" gasline compatable, stainless steel components and exchangers, not to mention a built in buffer tank and recirc.

We once installed Rinnai exclusively, man were they a pain to install, and every customer complained about how long it took get hot water. Since the switch, no complaints.

We too, switched from Rinnai to navien, very good stuff. And the warranty is the best service I've seen, usually have the replacement part in my hands next day! Been impressed that much.
As far as flushing goes, it is maybe too early to tell, but hopefully the ones we do it on will payoff in the long run, because tank type water heaters bite the dust quick anymore it seems

 

[CT18]

Whats the temp rise and flow rate of these naviens with the 1/2" gas.

 

[spcwaters]

 

[CT18]

Look at the temp rise flow rate from 45 to 77. What if someone else turns on the hot at 3.8 . I believe our incoming water temp is 65°.

 

[CT18]

I guess the 240 series is much better at 5 gpm.

 

[spcwaters]

I guess the 240 series is much better at 5 gpm.

We use the 240s. So far we like them the best.

A lot of the problems that are being had with Naviens IMO, is the settings. You need to know about the dip switches, an their function.

We just had a go back (leaving now) on a cascading unit. On the install, we failed to set one heater as a master, and one as a slave. All kinds of weird things ensued, with a few clicks on the interface, and a flip of a dip switch. Problem solved.

 

[CT18]

I can see how knowing all that would be helpful. Back when i was working in the field our owner did not feel that was necessary, just get it installed and collect the money. I think the 2 years i was doing residential work we went through Rinnai, Bosch, Noritz and the last was Navien.

 

[spcwaters]

I can see how knowing all that would be helpful. Back when i was working in the field our owner did not feel that was necessary, just get it installed and collect the money. I think the 2 years i was doing residential work we went through Rinnai, Bosch, Noritz and the last was Navien.

Yeah, it helps a lot.

I recommend the Navien level 3 course for any installer or service tech, it's a complete tear down and rebuilt. Usually runs 10 bucks a person.