Leak - Help ID source, and Whats Involved to Fix?

[ihavezippers]

I regularly come to find water on my basement floor coming from the ceiling (unfinished basement/ceiling). I believe the leak is coming from the bathroom(s) upstairs, but not sure if its pipes, or coming through the floor, or both. I have felt water condensation on the exposed pipes in the basement ceiling sometimes, but a guy who fixed my furnace pointed out to me there is mold on the wood, and the wood also appears to have water damage. The leak mainly occurs in one spot (under the master bathroom), but time to time, I have found water in another area of the basement (pipes above that as well).

Can someone assist me on (1) identifying the source of the leak, just so I can speak with some knowledge when I hire a plumber, and (2) educate me on whats involved to fix it (particularly, cost-wise).

I purchased this home approximately a year ago, built in the 1950s. I want to renovate the bathrooms next and in fact had the money saved to do so, but just found out last weekend I owe a nice chunk of change to Uncle Sam for income tax, so it will be at least winter before I will have the funds to do that. I was hoping to fix this leak issue during the time of the renovation. I think the leak thing is something that needs to be fixed asap, especially if it is leaking through the flooring and creating mold...but it seems like fixing the issue would require tearing up my bathrooms as it is, right? Another knowledgeable person I spoke to theorized my leak had something to do with a shoddy job of sealing the shower when it was installed. Also, for what its worth, my only other post on this forum was about a strange stale-urine smell coming from my bathroom, which never really went away...I imagine this is connected to the leak as well.

Thanks for your advice. Bottom line, I'd like to fix this asap, but I really won't have the $ to do a full bathroom reno until December.

 

[havasu]

I hate to tell you that drywall is cheap. You will need to go to the source of the drip and investigate first hand. It could be a thousand reasons, but focusing your attention at the shower pan is a good guess.

 

[ihavezippers]

Thanks, assuming its not the pipes that need to be replaced, what is a really ballpark guestimate to fix something like this? And can it be fixed without tearing up the bathroom too much? I.e., I don't want to have to repair the bathroom only to tear it apart 6 months later for the reno.

 

[ihavezippers]

What would a quality plumber charge to even come out and look at this?

 

[havasu]

This is similar to saying my car won't run, how much will it cost to fix? A plumber will first crack open the ceiling and charge you just for that. It may be as simple as caulking in the shower. If it is a broken water line with lots of mold, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dollars.

The reason for saying this is that there are many experts here to help you (not me, I'm just a little old handyman) and if you open up the ceiling and turn on the water, it is possible to somewhat diagnose your problem so even if a plumber was needed, your price would be hundreds less.

If you do not feel comfortable doing this, then contact a local plumber (I'd recommend at least two or three), pay a small diagnosis fee, and determine your best plan of action.

Please keep us in the loop because we seriously care and are here to help you if needed.

 

[phishfood]

Can you see the drainage pipes and water pipes from underneath, or are they covered over with drywall or paneling?

Have you tried running just the shower for a period of time, and checking for leakage, then flushing the toilet many times and checking for leakage, etc?

 

[ihavezippers]

Thanks. Yeah the pipes are exposed in the ceiling, or at least some pipes are exposed. There is no drywall , just pipes, floor joists, and then the ground level flooring base. But there may be something above that floor base, since this is what i was referring to having mold and being damp...water is atleast in part leaking through something on top of this base resting on the floor joists. I will try running the shower and flushing the toilet tommorow. If pictures will helppictures would help let i can post. Thanks

 

[havasu]

Pictures would be a great help. Take a pic from both the top and the underside, or a few of each at different angles.

 

[LiQuId]

pics would be awesome but An early suggestion would be to check the Toilets wax ring and also the escustion around the sower valve handle ( the plate behind it ), if you pour water over it does it go around or under ? I have seen a lot of imoproperly installed trim and youd be suprised how much water can creep in .

 

[ihavezippers]

Hopefully this will work...

 

[ihavezippers]

Great, worked. Pictures 1-3 are one angle of the problem area, picture 4 is viewing the same area from a different angle. Picture 5 is a completely different area, although it appears at least a little water damage/mold is there too. I did as Phishfood suggested, running the toilet, shower, and sink in the master bath for a while. None of them produced any leakage I saw. I felt each of the pipes, and none of the pipes were leaking water in each of the tests I did. I didn't feel the molded wood sections during the tests, but there was no apparent dripping coming from them either.

One thing which may be causing the leak is just water on the floor...the flooring is linoleum "tiles" (a better description is 1mm thick plastic squares), with no real sealant in between each tile...i.e., I could easily see water getting through the cracks. However, I have seen pools of water in the basement at times, so it seems unlikely that all of that water is leaking through the floor. And as bad and wide-spread that mold is in the pictures, do you think my leakage issues could be coming entirely from water running through the floor like that?

 

[LiQuId]

possiblle, do you have a proper bathroom exaust fan and is it used when the shower is at ALL times ??

you have obvious signs of leakage where the Plastic meets the copper ( toilet trap arm ) on the bottom end of the fernco coupler ( rubber gear clamped section )

perhaps im mistaken but it also appears that the pipe decreases in diameter at that connection ( not good ) which would contribute to this not being water tight.

 

[ihavezippers]

Liquid---thank you for the suggestion. It sounds like to examine this as you suggest would be somewhat complicated, and starting next weekend, I will have houseguests for 2 weeks. I need to have both toilets functioning throughout this time, so I am going to wait to conduct this test until after they are gone. For you or others more inclined, I'm sure you could do this in an hour or less---but for me, it would be at least a half-day event, most of my interactions with toilets has been using them, not removing them.

 

[ihavezippers]

possiblle, do you have a proper bathroom exaust fan and is it used when the shower is at ALL times ??

you have obvious signs of leakage where the Plastic meets the copper ( toilet trap arm ) on the bottom end of the fernco coupler ( rubber gear clamped section )

perhaps im mistaken but it also appears that the pipe decreases in diameter at that connection ( not good ) which would contribute to this not being water tight.

As to the exhaust fan, it usually does run (the same switch turns on/off the light). The bathroom is very poorly ventilated, one of the goals of the renovation I want to do is to have a much larger doorway.

 

[phishfood]

OK, that does help with diagnosis.

It appears as though you have a shower pan liner with mud bed and tile. Those work well when installed properly and they are not damaged. Unfortunately, even many "plumbers" can't seem to install them correctly, and the standard plastic liner is easily damaged.

REmove the shower drain grate, and plug the drain with a rag or a sponge. Use 5 gallon buckets to fill the shower with an inch or two of water. Do not use the shower valve for this, as if the leak is in the shower valve somewhere, you would not know which of the two (valve or pan) is leaking. A little water will leak past the sponge/rag, but if the pan is leaking the water should show up within 15 or 20 minutes.

 

[mccmech]

Firstly, is that drain from a tiled shower stall? Now, when I try to locate a leak on a tub or shower I test the drain first. Do this by filling a couple 5 gallon buckets which you can pour down the drain. I never use the faucet to run water down the drain because I want to be able to ABSOLUTELY identify a drain leak & not muddy the water by having a spout or shower riser running. After testing the drain I will then run the faucet. Spout first if it's a tub. Let it run for a bit to make sure water isn't running back into the control wall then dripping down through the floor. After eliminating any spout issues I would run the shower head. Again, let it run for a bit so if there's a small leak on a joint it has time to show itself. After eliminating the drain, spout & shower head I would try blocking the drain opening then filling the bottom of my tub or shower with water to see if there might be a crack in the fixture or a possible tear in a pan liner for tile shower stalls. Other guys may trace this thing different, but this is just how I do my detective work. Best of luck finding the cause.

 

[ihavezippers]

Thanks Phishfood and Mccmech, I will try the 5-gallon bucket idea with the drain plugged first. Like I said, I let the water run on the shower, toilet, and sink for 5 minutes each on Saturday, and none of them showed signs of producing the issue themselves. Maybe if I had come back 30 minutes later to look at it, I might have found a pool of water.

The shower stall is a hard/thick tile. The bathroom floor is a cheap/thin plastic strip, very similar to a magnet or even a soft-cover of a book---this is a reason I wonder if water splashed outside the shower might be causing the leak.

 

[ihavezippers]

I tried to remove the shower grate, but the screw inserts are so badly warped for whatever reason that my hand screwdriver, electric screwdriver, and even 18-volt powerdrill were unable to remove them. Since I had already filled the bucket with 5 gallons of water, I put a plastic placemat over the drain and put some clay plant pots on top to attempt to seal the drain. This didn't really work, but maybe it delayed water running down the drain.

I poured the 5+gallons of water into the shower stall and went to the basement 15 minutes later and didn't see any evidence of leaking. I'm going to go back down (approximately 30-45 minutes after doing this) and reexamine, but if I don't come back with a new reply, you can assume no water leaking.

 

[ihavezippers]

Any rough guesstimates on the cost to repair this at this point? I can purchase insurance which is supposed to cover repair costs (if I remember correctly, it was something like $1100 for 12 months of coverage), but my experience with that is that the contract plumbers/electricians/etc that do the work for this insurance co. usually only offer a temporary fix under the insurance contract. It is always extra if you need to order a new part, as I experienced with my AC.

Anyways, do you think I should employ a plumber directly for this, or go through the insurance route and take my chances (with a $100 deductible for the plumber to evaluate the issue)---my house isn't falling apart at the seams, but probably within a 12 month period I would use the insurance at least once for something else.

Thanks

 

[phishfood]

I haven't heard anything good about the home insurance companies, though I haven't had any personal experience with them.