Hiring a plumber that does not have workers' comp

[jwblue]

We are hiring a plumber to install new copper pipes in our home and reroute the pipes from our home's slab to the attic.

If the plumber does not have workers' comp and he is injured while working at our home are we liable for those injuries?

Is there a lot of use of dangerous equipment when installing copper pipes? How is the drywall removed? How is the pipe cut?

 

[Mr_David]

You should me worried if he is bonded and insured. That torch can set your home into a really nice Bon fire.

 

[jwblue]

You should me worried if he is bonded and insured. That torch can set your home into a really nice Bon fire.

I didn't think of that.

I was thinking it was more likely a plumber would be seriously injured than any serious damage occurring to our home.

We have a lot of assets to protect and if a contractor were to seriously injure himself at our home it could be costly.

I don't understand the liability law.

if a worker injures himself and we were not negligent why should we be liable? Doesn't there have to be negligence in order for there to be liability?

I e-mailed a plumber asking questions this was the response I received.

These are strange questions about a repipe.

Apparently I am stupid for not wanting to be liable for injuries occurring in my home.

 

[havasu]

Most Homeowner's Insurance policies have a built in clause to protect one worker from your home at any given time. Any more than one, and you would need to pay a premium. Check your policy closely, and this is just "general" information.

 

[Caduceus]

Right. It should not be considered rude to ask a contractor for their insurance information to cover damages or personal injury. If he refuses, it's a red flag. You should be able to call his insurance company and verify the policy and explain what he is doing in your home to ensure his responsibilities are covered.
I told several contractors to leave my house before I found one that was insured. I was told they were insured when I contacted them, but they balked when I asked for information to verify, during the estimates.
This process could also show if they are a legitimate contractor or a fly by night handyman that you will have regrets about later.

 

[jwblue]

Right. It should not be considered rude to ask a contractor for their insurance information to cover damages or personal injury. If he refuses, it's a red flag. You should be able to call his insurance company and verify the policy and explain what he is doing in your home to ensure his responsibilities are covered.
I told several contractors to leave my house before I found one that was insured. I was told they were insured when I contacted them, but they balked when I asked for information to verify, during the estimates.
This process could also show if they are a legitimate contractor or a fly by night handyman that you will have regrets about later.

I appreciate this validation of my concerns.

For a short time I thought maybe I was nuts for asking these questions.

It is hilarious that the plumber I e-mailed all but criticized me for asking these questions about workers' comp insurance.
If I hired him and he was seriously injured and needed to go to the hospital the day after he left the hospital he would be knocking on my door asking me to pay his medical expenses.

 

[KULTULZ]

If I hired him and he was seriously injured and needed to go to the hospital the day after he left the hospital he would be knocking on my door asking me to pay his medical expenses.

Not to mention the likely civil case he would file also covering loss of work and other compensation(s).

 

[frodo]

if its a reputable company, I really do not think you have anything to worry about as far as injury claims
A company that sued their clients would not have there doors open for long. people would stay away like the plague

if worried, attach a signed addition to the contract , stating you are not responsible,for any injuries, and if property damage, they agree to pay deductibles and any unforeseen damages and in the event of an accident to person or property,
a drug test, at their expense with in a 2 hour time frame of accident. consult a lawyer for correct verbage
.

 

[frodo]

We are hiring a plumber to install new copper pipes in our home and reroute the pipes from our home's slab to the attic.

If the plumber does not have workers' comp and he is injured while working at our home are we liable for those injuries?

Is there a lot of use of dangerous equipment when installing copper pipes? How is the drywall removed? How is the pipe cut?

if he breaks out a torch without a fireextinguisher. shut him down till an extinguisher is present. within 25 ft of the torch.

most states, if he does not have a business license, or workmens comp.
you ARE liable for any injuries. and will lose if you go to couurt for hiring a worker without a business license.

something about, having clean hands

Maxim

A broad statement of principle, the truth and reasonableness of which are self-evident. A rule of Equity, the system of justice that complements the Common Law.

Maxims were originally quoted in Latin, and many of the Latin phrases continue to be familiar to lawyers in the early 2000s. The maxims were not written down in an organized code or enacted by legislatures, but they have been handed down through generations of judges. As a result, the wording of a maxim may vary from case to case. For example, it is a general rule that equity does not aid a party at fault. This maxim has been variously expressed:


No one is entitled to the aid of a court of equity when that aid has become necessary through his or her own fault.

Equity does not relieve a person of the consequences of his or her own carelessness.

A court of equity will not assist a person in extricating himself or herself from the circumstances that he or she has created.

Equity will not grant relief from a self-created hardship.

The principles of equity and justice are universal in the common-law courts of the world. They are flexible principles aimed at achieving justice for both sides in each case. No maxim is ever absolute, but all of the principles must be weighed and fitted to the facts of an individual controversy. A rule does not apply when it would produce an unfair result. A party cannot insist that a strict technicality be enforced in his or her favor when it would create an injustice because equity will instead balance the interests of the different parties and the convenience of the public.

bottom line, do not hire a plumber who does not have a business lisence or plumbers license. if things go south, you will lose in court

 

[havasu]

Moderator notes:

The original poster requested that we here at Plumbing Forums remove this thread for fear it may upset and anger any non-licensed plumbers who view our site. Although I understand his concerns and would like to respect his wishes, I personally believe this is very important information for all viewers, and have decided to leave it.

If anyone has any concerns regarding this decision, please sent me a Private Message and we can discuss this.

 

[frodo]

MODS< PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS IF IT IS TO CONTROVERSIAL



LOL...that is a whole neither can of worms. Are you a plumber if not licensed?

Speaking as a Plumber that hires other Plumbers. No, first thing I ask is your License up to date ? If not, their is a significant difference between your pay and a licensed Plumbers pay. You may be able to do Journeymen work, But I will only pay you Helper wages.

THATS NOT FAAAAAAAAIRRRRRRR!!!!
Yes it is, look at it from a Owners point of view

A licensed plumber can meet with an Inspector . He can run a job, He is LEGALLY allowed to be on a jobsite to do the work.
AN Unlicensed plumber, Can not meet with the inspector to have inspections done.
He LEGALLY can NOT run a job with out a license being present.

If, An inspector catch's A job being run without a License Present, He WILL shut that job down. Level a fine on the permit holder.
That, Is not something a Plumbing Contractor wants to happen, Nor is it something a Builder will stand for more than once out of his contractors

so, You see, A unlicensed plumber, can not perform the duties of a licensed plumber

Of course these laws I am speaking of do not pertain to all 50 states. their are a couple of states that do not require a license to do the work.


their are also other laws in play here.
To get a license, Background checks are run,
A felon, can not hold a plumbers license without going before the board and have a hearing. who,what,why,where . and voted on
If you are a dead beat Dad, you license is revoked till your caught up
not saying i agree, but thats the way it is.
Most bonding company's will not bond a felon.
the reason for the background checks. plumbers go into your home.
for the safety of the public.

 

[DFBonnett]

If the plumber does not have workers' comp .......

Here in New Jerky I was not required to have comp for myself, only for my employees. Your state may or may not be the same.

 

[jwblue]

Here in New Jerky I was not required to have comp for myself, only for my employees. Your state may or may not be the same.

Same in California. It does not make sense to me.

The plot thickens.

I sent an e-mail to the plumber yesterday,

Before any work begins I need to be certain -------- Plumbing &#8203;&#8203;has &#8203;liability insurance and workers'&#8203; &#8203;comp &#8203;that covers&#8203; everyone that will be working &#8203;at the home.

He replies yes.

He shows up with the proof of insurance. I neglected to ask the owner if he himself is covered by workers' comp. Two hours into the job I do ask if he is covered. HE IS NOT COVERED. Of course I get the line, "I am not required to have worker's comp coverage.

He then goes on to tell me about all this other insurance coverage he has which I am almost certain would not mean anything if he is injured on the job.

Now I am at risk and need to hold my breath for 3 days.

MODS< PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS IF IT IS TO CONTROVERSIAL

LOL...that is a whole neither can of worms. Are you a plumber if not licensed?

Speaking as a Plumber that hires other Plumbers. No, first thing I ask is your License up to date ? If not, their is a significant difference between your pay and a licensed Plumbers pay. You may be able to do Journeymen work, But I will only pay you Helper wages.

A plumber can be licensed and is supposed to be insured. That does not mean they are. Policies lapse.

It is insane that an owner of a company does not need to have workers' comp.
Can someone explain the logic with this?

My plumber will be doing welding. Of course he could be injured.

 

[havasu]

When I had worker's in my home, before they stepped foot into my house, I had them sign lien releases, and worker's comp guarantees. I'll see if I can still find them somewhere, but are easily found on the internet. Yeah, they may just be fluff, but if I had to go to court to defend my actions, these papers would sure be good evidence as "trying to do the right thing."

 

[jwblue]

When I had worker's in my home, before they stepped foot into my house, I had them sign lien releases, and worker's comp guarantees. I'll see if I can still find them somewhere, but are easily found on the internet. Yeah, they may just be fluff, but if I had to go to court to defend my actions, these papers would sure be good evidence as "trying to do the right thing."

Is a lien release to prevent a company from putting a lien on a home in case of liability?

It is unfair for a homeowner to interpret an insurance policy anyway.

I read the proof of workers' comp and I missed the box that says "Any Proprietor/Partner/Executive/Officer/Member excluded." Damn!

I am due a little bit of good luck. Hopefully I can get through this major job without any incident.

 

[Chris]

Work comp does not cover the owner of the business, only the employees. Here in CA all the commercial projects I do I am required to have work comp, general liability and commercial auto insurance or they won't even consider hiring me whether I have employees or not. I work with a lot of fire sprinkler guys who don't carry work comp because they don't have employees and they miss out on work because of it.

All in all the homeowner is liable for anyone that gets hurt while at their house and that is why you have home owners insurance, you can also get an umbrella policy on it to cover construction workers.

Its not ideal or what any of us want to here but it is reality, heck someone walking by your house and trips on the sidewalk can sue you. If we could just teach people that if they hurt themselves it is most likely their fault and stop taking law suits for anything we would be ok.

JW as a business owner myself, I would like like to be covered by my work comp as well as my employees, it is not allowed but I guess that is why I have health insurance. That is all work comp is anyway. With the new government mandated health insurance they should get rid of work comp all together.

 

[frodo]

I do not know about workman's comp policy's but a plumbers license can be verified by typing in his license # . as whether it is current or not

here, we have continuing education every year, if you do not attend and pay your $100.00 for the 8 hour class and a donut

you loose your license. have to retest, that is another $100.00 and another 8 hours

 

[jwblue]

JW as a business owner myself, I would like like to be covered by my work comp as well as my employees, it is not allowed but I guess that is why I have health insurance. That is all work comp is anyway. With the new government mandated health insurance they should get rid of work comp all together.

I appreciate the response.

It is my understanding that a business owner can be covered by workers' comp. You should be able to get it.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dwc/faqs.html

Q. Are executive officers or directors of the company covered under its workers' compensation policy?

A. Generally, all employees of the company, as legally defined, including corporate officers and directors, must be included in the policy unless they are the sole owners of the firm.

I would like to know if I am not understanding something. I need an attorney just to hire a contractor.

 

[Chris]

I just looked it up for my work comp company and we can be included as long as I want to pay a premium for it. I guess they naturally exclude you when you first sign up. I didn't know that. I do know that my policy does not include myself.

Also the last thing I would do is sue someone if I hurt myself on their property, it's not their fault I didn't pay attention.

 

[Chris]

I am a sole owner of my company. Maybe that is why they do not include me?